John 3 and Water Baptism in the Ministry of Jesus Christ
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Why do people have to make salvation so complicated? I knew nothing of doctrine. The man who led me to Jesus told me about sin, God's holiness, righteousness and the penalty of sin. He then told me the good news that Jesus paid the price for all my sins. He showed me the scriptures in Romans that are known as "The Roman road". He told me about the shed blood of Jesus and about the resurrection. I knew then that I was a lost sinner according to God's word and I gladly accepted Christ. Immediately I knew that my sins were forgiven. I knew something within me had changed. It was only later that I realised it was the new birth. What was my contribution to my salvation? Nothing. I simply accepted what was already done for me.
Once I was born again, I discovered some new imperatives within. I detested church before I was born again. I sought out a church immediately, even though I had little idea of denominations and such. Before I was born again, I could not read the Bible. After I was saved, I would spend hours in study.
To be born again means to have a new nature. Yes, it clashes with the old and Satan constantly seeks to hinder our walk. But everything from the moment we are born again is the outworking of what God has already done in Christ. To believe otherwise is doubt and unbelief, and God is not at all pleased. Jesus said, "It is finished" from the cross. Indeed it is. God has left nothing for us to do but walk in what He has done already. It is a lifetime of discovery. It will be contested. We will fail from time to time. But we are now complete in Christ, partakers of the divine nature and God has given us everything we need to live godly lives.
Once I was born again, I discovered some new imperatives within. I detested church before I was born again. I sought out a church immediately, even though I had little idea of denominations and such. Before I was born again, I could not read the Bible. After I was saved, I would spend hours in study.
To be born again means to have a new nature. Yes, it clashes with the old and Satan constantly seeks to hinder our walk. But everything from the moment we are born again is the outworking of what God has already done in Christ. To believe otherwise is doubt and unbelief, and God is not at all pleased. Jesus said, "It is finished" from the cross. Indeed it is. God has left nothing for us to do but walk in what He has done already. It is a lifetime of discovery. It will be contested. We will fail from time to time. But we are now complete in Christ, partakers of the divine nature and God has given us everything we need to live godly lives.
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That's great. I was led to Jesus by a Methodist who did not teach believer's baptism. When I discovered that baptism was in God's word, I was baptised at the first opportunity. I felt nothing as I went under and nothing as I came up. I noticed no change in my life as a result of being baptised. Others have different responses.
It may help you to understand that I was on my own as a believer for about 3 years. I was on a ship, the only believer. I obviously traveled a lot. God saw to it that I met many Christians, even in Japan. A missionary team was handing out tracts and one of the crew took one. He mumbled that he was not interested but was sure that I would be. That's how I met Christians in Japan.
I had a lot to learn and at first, it was pretty much by myself. I had the Bible, Jesus and whatever fellowship I could find while in port. I eventually became a member of a baptist church in Sydney and that's where I was baptised. I attended when I could, which was not that often.
It may help you to understand that I was on my own as a believer for about 3 years. I was on a ship, the only believer. I obviously traveled a lot. God saw to it that I met many Christians, even in Japan. A missionary team was handing out tracts and one of the crew took one. He mumbled that he was not interested but was sure that I would be. That's how I met Christians in Japan.
I had a lot to learn and at first, it was pretty much by myself. I had the Bible, Jesus and whatever fellowship I could find while in port. I eventually became a member of a baptist church in Sydney and that's where I was baptised. I attended when I could, which was not that often.
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Re "If we make water baptism an optional "good thing to do", we minimize the importance of it.": The question is whether Jesus and Paul made works such as WB and observing Sabbath law optional or reaffirmed them as mandatory, like they did with regard to moral laws against murder and fornication.
What makes answering the question rather difficult is that in the Gospels and Acts, God was guiding a transition from the Old to the New Covenant, so discernment is needed concerning various statements as well as what is implied by what was NOT said--in this case clear teachings that WB and SL must be obeyed (or confessed/repented of as sins) in order for the soul to be/remain saved. I do not see such, although I believe WB and having a day of rest per week are good, so my family are all WBed and don't go to work on Saturdays.
What makes answering the question rather difficult is that in the Gospels and Acts, God was guiding a transition from the Old to the New Covenant, so discernment is needed concerning various statements as well as what is implied by what was NOT said--in this case clear teachings that WB and SL must be obeyed (or confessed/repented of as sins) in order for the soul to be/remain saved. I do not see such, although I believe WB and having a day of rest per week are good, so my family are all WBed and don't go to work on Saturdays.
Re "Why do people have to make salvation so complicated?": They do not have to make God's requirement for salvation (GRFS) complicated, and they shouldn't. The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT simply is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated simply as follows:
If we truly believe in Jesus as Christ, the Savior who represents God the Father, then we will also accept Him as Lord (LK 2:11) or God the Son (MT 16:16) or God in the human dimension (CL 2:9). When we truly accept Jesus as Lord, we will want to please Him by doing His will (MT 7:21, EPH 5:8-10). Learning the manifold teachings or doctrines describing God’s moral will takes a lifetime. Thus, the need for perseverance/loyalty/remaining faithful, which is as easy or simple as an act of will. Remain faithful until the end.
Paul taught the importance of continuing to learn God’s Word (LGW) in 2TM 3:14-17, saying “Continue in what you have learned and have been convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
- There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
- Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
- Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
- Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
- Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
If we truly believe in Jesus as Christ, the Savior who represents God the Father, then we will also accept Him as Lord (LK 2:11) or God the Son (MT 16:16) or God in the human dimension (CL 2:9). When we truly accept Jesus as Lord, we will want to please Him by doing His will (MT 7:21, EPH 5:8-10). Learning the manifold teachings or doctrines describing God’s moral will takes a lifetime. Thus, the need for perseverance/loyalty/remaining faithful, which is as easy or simple as an act of will. Remain faithful until the end.
Paul taught the importance of continuing to learn God’s Word (LGW) in 2TM 3:14-17, saying “Continue in what you have learned and have been convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
A couple points to make. The bible says baptism saves us, 1 Peter 3:21. So, what are we saved from? It's our past sins. So then, yes, you can have been initially saved at the time of your immersion, but that saving is not guaranteed thereafter nor a free license to do whatever you like or reject the Lord that initially saved you. The Hebrews were warned of rejecting the Lord after their initial conversion in the Hebrews letter, so salvationcan be lost. Sin afterwards requires repentance and forgiveness also as the scriptures teach.
And the baptism of John and most likely that of Jesus's deciples prior to his death, was "the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" similar to the baptism in Acts 2:38; the big difference is, while Jesus was yet alive, you couldn't be baptized into him or his death, so any baptism done while alive would have to be repeated to have the effect if remitting sins, unlike subsequent to Jesus's death wherein the baptism of Acts 2:38 was and is a one-time event, not requiring repeating, and only repentance and God's grace again necessary for continued forgiveness. Note too that the Ephesians were re-baptized into Christ having only initially been baptized unto John's baptism as recorded in Acts 19.
Yes, we are always saved ultimately by God's grace, but baptism IS required as well prior thereto: it's not a work, but rather a commandment that must be obeyed by the believer.
And the baptism of John and most likely that of Jesus's deciples prior to his death, was "the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" similar to the baptism in Acts 2:38; the big difference is, while Jesus was yet alive, you couldn't be baptized into him or his death, so any baptism done while alive would have to be repeated to have the effect if remitting sins, unlike subsequent to Jesus's death wherein the baptism of Acts 2:38 was and is a one-time event, not requiring repeating, and only repentance and God's grace again necessary for continued forgiveness. Note too that the Ephesians were re-baptized into Christ having only initially been baptized unto John's baptism as recorded in Acts 19.
Yes, we are always saved ultimately by God's grace, but baptism IS required as well prior thereto: it's not a work, but rather a commandment that must be obeyed by the believer.
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Jesus told the blind man in John 9 to go wash; he did and he received his sight. What if the man had said, "Oh no, I can't do that; I've been taught that works are contrary to faith." He would not have obeyed the Lord and he wouldn't have received his miracle.
Here's a question: What are the anti-works crowd really so afraid of? It's abundantly clear that obeying the Lord in baptism isn't works salvation. I can't believe you don't know and understand this. So what is your real motivation for not teaching new converts to be baptized as soon as possible? I'm just not buying the whole "works" argument anymore; there has to be something else. Is baptizing someone just too much trouble? Would it cut into Sunday dinner time, or the NFL game on TV?
Here's a question: What are the anti-works crowd really so afraid of? It's abundantly clear that obeying the Lord in baptism isn't works salvation. I can't believe you don't know and understand this. So what is your real motivation for not teaching new converts to be baptized as soon as possible? I'm just not buying the whole "works" argument anymore; there has to be something else. Is baptizing someone just too much trouble? Would it cut into Sunday dinner time, or the NFL game on TV?
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I appreciate your noting nuances in various NT statements regarding baptism, but the key question remains: whether Jesus and Paul made works such as WB and observing Sabbath law optional or reaffirmed them as mandatory, like they did with regard to moral laws against murder and fornication. In the Gospels and Acts, God was guiding a transition from the Old to the New Covenant, so discernment is needed concerning various statements as well as what is implied by what was NOT said--in this case clear teachings that WB and SL must be obeyed (or confessed/repented of as sins) in order for the soul to be/remain saved. I do not see such.
Paul cited the work of the HS in 1CR 6:11b saying, “You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” Note that this verse refers both to WB and to baptism by the HS (1CR 12:13, “We were all baptized by one Spirit into one body”).
Confusion may arise from the fact that in Ephesians 4:5 Paul says there is only one baptism, but elsewhere the NT seems to refer to two types of baptism: one by water and another by the HS. Any confusion is resolved by understanding that the two types of baptism are united/harmonized if baptism by the HS (essential/salvific) is viewed as portrayed by WB (a NT practice recommended as a way of publicly professing faith, but non-essential/not salvific--cf. 1CR 11:23-26 re the Lord's Supper).
The details for this work are vague, but the mode of immersion best portrays a Believer’s spiritual union with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection to eternal life (CL 2:12, RM 6:4). As a practical matter, a new Believer normally would be WBd by the local congregation of the catholic (worldwide) church in which he/she will want to participate as an acknowledged member of the body of Christ. (I am baptized both ways and believe WB and having a day of rest per week are good.)
Paul cited the work of the HS in 1CR 6:11b saying, “You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” Note that this verse refers both to WB and to baptism by the HS (1CR 12:13, “We were all baptized by one Spirit into one body”).
Confusion may arise from the fact that in Ephesians 4:5 Paul says there is only one baptism, but elsewhere the NT seems to refer to two types of baptism: one by water and another by the HS. Any confusion is resolved by understanding that the two types of baptism are united/harmonized if baptism by the HS (essential/salvific) is viewed as portrayed by WB (a NT practice recommended as a way of publicly professing faith, but non-essential/not salvific--cf. 1CR 11:23-26 re the Lord's Supper).
The details for this work are vague, but the mode of immersion best portrays a Believer’s spiritual union with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection to eternal life (CL 2:12, RM 6:4). As a practical matter, a new Believer normally would be WBd by the local congregation of the catholic (worldwide) church in which he/she will want to participate as an acknowledged member of the body of Christ. (I am baptized both ways and believe WB and having a day of rest per week are good.)
You could carry that on to "believing".... that is also something we "do". Confessing is something we "do". Praying the so-called "sinner's prayer" is something we "do". Faith is about the only thing that is not "doing" something.
You suspect incorrectly. I do not have the authority to decide who is saved, or not. I leave that up to our loving God.
I am not trusting in baptism. I'm obeying God's command. I'm not questioning and doubting WHY I should do it. He told us to, so I obey, to the best of my ability.
In the same way you are trusting in believing, or having faith, because those are also "required".... following your logic, all one must do to be saved is simply "exist". It's a free gift. Just "be here" and you can have it, because we are saved by God's grace.... just the fact that Jesus died and was raised was all that was needed. EVERYONE is saved.
You suspect incorrectly. I do not have the authority to decide who is saved, or not. I leave that up to our loving God.
I am not trusting in baptism. I'm obeying God's command. I'm not questioning and doubting WHY I should do it. He told us to, so I obey, to the best of my ability.
In the same way you are trusting in believing, or having faith, because those are also "required".... following your logic, all one must do to be saved is simply "exist". It's a free gift. Just "be here" and you can have it, because we are saved by God's grace.... just the fact that Jesus died and was raised was all that was needed. EVERYONE is saved.
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Not sure what is missing understood, I will take a jab
homwardbound said:
agreed it was to leading unto Spirit Baptism from Daddy, Father, Papa to us all to be born new in Son Jesus's risen Life for us all to love in the same mercy and truth given us by Son going to that cross willingly for us all, for me at least, thanks agreed
I agree with your post
Then stated the water baptism was leading to Spirit Baptism, Father Baptizing us in Father's Spirit to be led new by Father, (Us willingly) otherwise Father will not lead, at least me this be my experiences
Born new in the risen Life, not the death, in water Baptism, Water Baptism is for to have a conscience between God and you. It is not for to become a member of gatherings here on earth under Law, at least for me. Yet I agree to get water Baptized for the right reason.
To be one with Father and Son, my public confession, thanks
The new birth is in the risen Son, as I am told this by my Dad, the Father of Son. All had to get fulfilled first, before any new life could ever get given anyone, as Jesus said to John, "I" must do all that is right, when he asked John to water Baptize him.
As John had said to him, John needed Baptized by Jesus before water Baptizing Jesus
Today, to see There is only one Baptism, one Faith and one Lord, changed much for me in my view being new, not seeing my view anymore, Father's view being retrained new as in Romans 12:1-2 tells me about it
At first, I was like: really Dad! oh, no I can;t remain as forgiven by you , reconciled if I sin, again? Yet, Father has proven to me that is truth. Father does not want or desire for me or anyone else to sin again, yet we, at least me got worse at sinning, once I got water Baptized by a preacher. I set out to not sin again, and God never has berated me, counted anything against me (Col 1)
Belief became reality, Son, unto Father at that cross for my cross over as dead to first birth, alive in the new birth in Daddy's Spirit and Truth the Holy Spirit, kind of like Saul, who became Paul and left law behind him to only uphold Law as good, to not control him anymore as it did, in his working for to be in under Father in risen Son by Law doing it perfect. Phil 3, explains that to me from Paul.
I am just extrapolating truth to you from the view given me to say to you in love and mercy to all.
I can not reveal a thing to anyone or even myself, only my Father, Daddy, PaPa can and does for all that do not quit belief, trust and faith to eventually see it is Love over all else
And be freed, not of themselves of God Father in Son's done work for them to live new in mercy and truth to all
Thanks
homwardbound said:
agreed it was to leading unto Spirit Baptism from Daddy, Father, Papa to us all to be born new in Son Jesus's risen Life for us all to love in the same mercy and truth given us by Son going to that cross willingly for us all, for me at least, thanks agreed
I agree with your post
Then stated the water baptism was leading to Spirit Baptism, Father Baptizing us in Father's Spirit to be led new by Father, (Us willingly) otherwise Father will not lead, at least me this be my experiences
Born new in the risen Life, not the death, in water Baptism, Water Baptism is for to have a conscience between God and you. It is not for to become a member of gatherings here on earth under Law, at least for me. Yet I agree to get water Baptized for the right reason.
To be one with Father and Son, my public confession, thanks
The new birth is in the risen Son, as I am told this by my Dad, the Father of Son. All had to get fulfilled first, before any new life could ever get given anyone, as Jesus said to John, "I" must do all that is right, when he asked John to water Baptize him.
As John had said to him, John needed Baptized by Jesus before water Baptizing Jesus
Today, to see There is only one Baptism, one Faith and one Lord, changed much for me in my view being new, not seeing my view anymore, Father's view being retrained new as in Romans 12:1-2 tells me about it
At first, I was like: really Dad! oh, no I can;t remain as forgiven by you , reconciled if I sin, again? Yet, Father has proven to me that is truth. Father does not want or desire for me or anyone else to sin again, yet we, at least me got worse at sinning, once I got water Baptized by a preacher. I set out to not sin again, and God never has berated me, counted anything against me (Col 1)
Belief became reality, Son, unto Father at that cross for my cross over as dead to first birth, alive in the new birth in Daddy's Spirit and Truth the Holy Spirit, kind of like Saul, who became Paul and left law behind him to only uphold Law as good, to not control him anymore as it did, in his working for to be in under Father in risen Son by Law doing it perfect. Phil 3, explains that to me from Paul.
I am just extrapolating truth to you from the view given me to say to you in love and mercy to all.
I can not reveal a thing to anyone or even myself, only my Father, Daddy, PaPa can and does for all that do not quit belief, trust and faith to eventually see it is Love over all else
And be freed, not of themselves of God Father in Son's done work for them to live new in mercy and truth to all
Thanks
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Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures.
John 4:2
"1When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples"
Mary, Martha and Lazarus lived without it.
The thief on the cross lived without it.
I got baptized, but live without it.
I live by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ apart from my works.
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and you know this.... how? Besides, they were before the institution of water baptism that included receiving the Spirt... which was after Jesus' death and resurrection... after Pentecost.
Which of John's statements are you going to believe? In chapter 3, it plainly states that Jesus was baptizing. Then in 4 it says it was his disciples....
In reality, it doesn't matter whether he did or did not.... the facts are that he was there, even if only in a "supervisory" role, in full accptance and approval of the practice.
John 3
22 Then Jesus and his disciples left Jerusalem and went into the Judean countryside. Jesus spent some time with them there, baptizing people.
26 So John’s disciples came to him and said, “Rabbi, the man you met on the other side of the Jordan River, the one you identified as the Messiah, is also baptizing people.
Which of John's statements are you going to believe? In chapter 3, it plainly states that Jesus was baptizing. Then in 4 it says it was his disciples....
In reality, it doesn't matter whether he did or did not.... the facts are that he was there, even if only in a "supervisory" role, in full accptance and approval of the practice.
John 3
22 Then Jesus and his disciples left Jerusalem and went into the Judean countryside. Jesus spent some time with them there, baptizing people.
26 So John’s disciples came to him and said, “Rabbi, the man you met on the other side of the Jordan River, the one you identified as the Messiah, is also baptizing people.
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It is my opinion that the be baptized into John's ministry was in 'assuming' it, and so being baptized in Jesus' Name denotes a similar meaning. John made straight the way of the Lord, of which Jesus is the arrival. In water, submersion into the water is the evidence, representative of the word, per se the hearing of, and declaring of His coming (to you), but in the other is a submersion into fire, representative of the Spirit, of His arrival (to you).
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