Understanding God’s election

[studier]

You're the one who HATES God's election and his effectual grace because you covet his glory. And what really sticks in your craw is that you still know that he's a JEALOUS God (I wonder if you think that makes him sinner?) who will not share his glory with anyone. What's even worse is that God does ALL things for his own Glory -- not man's! And that really ticks you off because you along with all worldly religious people desperately need to find ways pat yourselves on the back and take credit for your religious life. You clearly don't believe that God makes the difference between why one person believes and another doesn't. And yet you claim to be a Christian who loves God!? Why because he gave you an opportunity to save yourself? He gave you the opportunity to congratulate yourself for being so smart?

And by the way, "evil" isn't a thing! Evil is the deprivation of something. No one would know that shadows exist if it weren't for sunlight. And so it is with evil. It's the absence of good. No saint will ever know what evil is in the New Order. After all, God is going to "force" everyone to behave forever and ever, don't you know?

It's kind of amazing how the only retort you have left for those who view election differently than you, meaning they view it Biblically, is that they are idolators and basically God haters and glory usurpers. After attempting to run roughshod for nearly 11,000 posts, you've obviously got nothing left. Several have made you look foolish.

God will not have to force volitional creatures made in His image to do anything as they have chosen to be in faithful submission to Him, a.k.a. to love Him, and in relationship with Him provided and enabled by Him have been conformed by Him to the likeness of His perfect Son and their first-born brother and Lord.

Volition is at the heart of all of this, Rufus. It's the story of the Garden and the fall. It's part of men not rejecting having God in their knowledge. It's part of Faith. It's involved in men receiving God's Son - His Christ. It's willing submission and it can be seen in perfection in the life of YHWH's perfectly obedient Son and Christ. "Nevertheless, Your will be done" may be some of the most important words ever spoken.

 

[GWH]

Maybe it would help to stop with the acronyms and instead just state what you mean.

Well, MFWist is not a cussword,
(if that is what you mean :^)

 

[GWH]

They're a way some deal with attributes like divine love and hate (under discussion, somewhat, in this thread), anger, etc. being very different with God than in men. The concept basically removes things like emotion and feelings and ties together all of His attributes (righteousness, justice, mercy, etc.) working in perfect harmony and functioning more like perfect, objective policy. So, His Word is describing Him in terms of characteristics to accommodate men who though created in His image are a far cry from being Him especially in our fallen state.

Oh, that seems akin to what I say in Part IV of Lesson 1 of the website:

I emphasize logic/reason without intending to demean emotion. Both are important aspects of personality, but their relationship is analogous to that of saving faith and works: faith precedes love (per GL 5:6), and right reasoning should guide one’s emotion. Biblical passages that seem to support the view that human logic is a divine gift include the following:

1. “Come now, let us reason together,” says the Lord. (IS 1:18a)

2. “They hated me without reason.” (JN 15:25)

3. “So [Paul] reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there.” (ACTS 17:17)

4. “We do, however, speak a message of wisdom [right reasoning] among the mature…” (1CR 2:6)

5. “When I was a child… I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.” (1CR 13:11)

6. “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.” (1PT 3:15b)

These passages indicate that we should think and attempt to learn the best beliefs/opinions or solutions regarding issues including the arguments or accusations of atheists:

a. There is no objective truth.
b. There are no miracles or proof that God exists.
c. Christianity is blind faith, whereas atheism is scientific.
d. Evolution disproves creation as described in Genesis.
e. Jesus did not resurrect.
f. The Bible is not divinely inspired.
g. The doctrines of wrath and hell indicate that God is hateful.
h. There is no more reason to believe in the biblical God than in pagan gods.
i. Christians are no better than other people.
j. A loving God would not allow evil to exist.
k. The NT gospel makes no sense.
l. The Trinity makes no sense.

 

[Magenta]

It's kind of amazing how the only retort you have left for those who view election differently than you, meaning they view it Biblically, is that they are idolators and basically God haters and glory usurpers. After attempting to run roughshod for nearly 11,000 posts, you've obviously got nothing left. Several have made you look foolish.

God will not have to force volitional creatures made in His image to do anything as they have chosen to be in faithful submission to Him, a.k.a. to love Him, and in relationship with Him provided and enabled by Him have been conformed by Him to the likeness of His perfect Son and their first-born brother and Lord.

Volition is at the heart of all of this, Rufus. It's the story of the Garden and the fall. It's part of men not rejecting having God in their knowledge. It's part of Faith. It's involved in men receiving God's Son - His Christ. It's willing submission and it can be seen in perfection in the life of YHWH's perfectly obedient Son and Christ. "Nevertheless, Your will be done" may be some of the most important words ever spoken.

Should I be surprised that after all this time you still have no clue what is at issue? You seem quite confused, but that is to be expected when you keep elevating your volition to the level of being Jesus Christ Himself in bending your will to God's. Perhaps you believe you did not even have to bend. LOL. Yeah. That would not surprise me either. Should you get points for your practised, puffed up pontification? Do you believe you co-operated with God in that as well?

 

[Magenta]

Do you think God loves Satan?

Yes, definitely per MT 5:44&48.

Psalm 5 verses 4-6 ~ You are not a God Who delights in wickedness; no evil can dwell with You.
The boastful cannot stand in Your presence; You hate all workers of iniquity. You destroy those who tell lies; the LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

 

[PaulThomson]

I'll take your deflection as a "yes" answer --that you do love the evil one.

Second question: Do you think God loves Satan?

Yes, I agapaO the devil. I hope he comes to trust God eventually.
Yes, I believe God apapaO's the devil. I believe God hopes the devil will come to trust Him eventually.

God is agapE.
Do you think God, who is agapE, has creeatures He simply cannot agapei?

 

[bluejean_bible]

Well, MFWist is not a cussword,
(if that is what you mean :^)

No. What does the M stand for as it relates to the Free Will part of MFWist?

 

[studier]

and right reasoning should guide one’s emotion

It looks like they are similar. One sure part of it is your statement I've quoted. Emotions and feelings are not meant to lead. I recall a period of time where it seemed all I was hearing in churches was about how Christians felt about things. It seemed to be an attempt to be tying into the leading and guidance of the Spirit, but there was a lot of resultant craziness - kind of a free-for-all type atmosphere with all kinds of things supposedly being of the Spirit - even unbiblical things. Maybe it was the coming beyond the 60's if it feels good then do it remnants.

 

[Magenta]

the arguments or accusations of atheists

The arguments of atheists are easy to knock down because they are so full of themselves.
Come to think of it, it was great training ground for dealing with people who think their will
was free despite everything the Bible has to say to the contrary... you know, things like the
natural man being a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, captive to the will of the devil, unable
to receive or comprehend the Spiritual things of God which are foolishness to him, as he is
inherently hostile in his mind toward God, opposed to the things of God, incapable of submitting
to God, with a heart that needs replacing, for it is with the heart that one believes... yikes, so much
Scripture is denied by the "free willer" that in order to prop up their erroneous theology they must
always always always misrepresent those they disagree with, just like those who suppress the truth
in unrighteousness! So sad there is such a strong correlation, so strong that it really is understandable
that some wonder whether or not some of those people are truly saved, especially with the way they
go on about God being an unjust tyrant kidnapping people against their will, being so unfair etc etc.
It can be quite odious hearing the things supposed Christians say as they blaspheme God. Yuck.

 

[Rufus]

Whats a FW?

FreeWillers are idolaters who worship their god Volition.

 

[Rufus]

I thought I did. So lets try this. If a calvinist is guaranteed salvaton he has no worries. He can do what he wants with no fear of hell. And if not one of the elect he is doomed no matter how righteous he lives.

Patently false statement! The most pernicious of all versions of the Gospel is when FWs tell sinners that God loves everyone in the world unconditionally -- that He loves each and everyone of us just as we are. Such a message provides zero incentive for any sinner to truly repent of his sins and trust in Christ. Since God loves each and everyone of us in our present condition, where is the incentive to seek him and cry out to Him to save them from their present condition.

Calvinists, conversely, fully understand what God's purpose is for his elect under the New Covenant. And that purpose most certainly does not embrace or encourage loose living. We know that God saves us from the penalty of sin, from the power of sin and eventually from the presence of sin.

 

[Rufus]

Another good one, Rufus. Talk about running on fumes.

Why is that? Did I pick the wrong god for you? Should it have been the god of Smarts?

 

[DeanM]

Patently false statement! The most pernicious of all versions of the Gospel is when FWs tell sinners that God loves everyone in the world unconditionally -- that He loves each and everyone of us just as we are. Such a message provides zero incentive for any sinner to truly repent of his sins and trust in Christ. Since God loves each and everyone of us in our present condition, where is the incentive to seek him and cry out to Him to save them from their present condition.

Calvinists, conversely, fully understand what God's purpose is for his elect under the New Covenant. And that purpose most certainly does not embrace or encourage loose living. We know that God saves us from the penalty of sin, from the power of sin and eventually from the presence of sin.

Read the bible. Im not going to waste time with people who refuse to understand. Its bad for my serenity. Again read scripture not what Calvins catchechism tells you.

 

[Rufus]

They're a way some deal with attributes like divine love and hate (under discussion, somewhat, in this thread), anger, etc. being very different with God than in men. The concept basically removes things like emotion and feelings and ties together all of His attributes (righteousness, justice, mercy, etc.) working in perfect harmony and functioning more like perfect, objective policy. So, His Word is describing Him in terms of characteristics to accommodate men who though created in His image are a far cry from being Him especially in our fallen state.

Wow! Surprise, surprise. You actually wrote something that has some biblical substance to it.

 

[Magenta]

Read the bible.

You just disagreed with a post that had a whole lot of Bible in it... But perhaps I should suspect that you don't really know what the issue is here since you are relatively new to the thread. We could cut to the chase and I will ask you if you think that a bad tree can produce good fruit. Jesus said no. What do you say?

 

[Rufus]

Read the bible. Im not going to waste time with people who refuse to understand. Its bad for my serenity. Again read scripture not what Calvins catchechism tells you.

I read the holy scriptures every day of my life. What is your excuse? My God actually SAVES people from the penalty, power and in the next age from the presence of sin. Your god may be a potential savior, providing only opportunities for salvation, but my God is the Real Deal. He actually RESCUES POWERLESS sinners; and He knows how to keep his saints!

 

[Rufus]

It's kind of amazing how the only retort you have left for those who view election differently than you, meaning they view it Biblically, is that they are idolators and basically God haters and glory usurpers. After attempting to run roughshod for nearly 11,000 posts, you've obviously got nothing left. Several have made you look foolish.

God will not have to force volitional creatures made in His image to do anything as they have chosen to be in faithful submission to Him, a.k.a. to love Him, and in relationship with Him provided and enabled by Him have been conformed by Him to the likeness of His perfect Son and their first-born brother and Lord.

Volition is at the heart of all of this, Rufus. It's the story of the Garden and the fall. It's part of men not rejecting having God in their knowledge. It's part of Faith. It's involved in men receiving God's Son - His Christ. It's willing submission and it can be seen in perfection in the life of YHWH's perfectly obedient Son and Christ. "Nevertheless, Your will be done" may be some of the most important words ever spoken.

There you go with your stupid, juvenile assumption of "forcing". Is that what the Good Samaritan did when he rescued a, helpless half-dead crime victim: He forced himself upon him? Or is that what God did during the Exodus when he rescued the helpless Israelites from the clutches of Pharaoh?

 

[Rufus]

Read the bible. Im not going to waste time with people who refuse to understand. Its bad for my serenity. Again read scripture not what Calvins catchechism tells you.

Shortsighted often? Maybe you should sacrifice your temporal serenity for the eternal kind by spending more time in the Word. Why covet peace and safety in this world at the expense of possibly sacrificing that in the eternal order?

 

[Magenta]

There you go with your stupid, juvenile assumption of "forcing". Is that what the Good Samaritan did when he rescued a, helpless half-dead crime victim: He forced himself upon him? Or is that what God did during the Exodus when he rescued the helpless Israelites from the clutches of Pharaoh?

Yeah they really show how little they understand the issue when they talk about forcing and being forced. It's like there's no room in their black & white thinking for the complexity and subtleties of reality when logical fallacies crowd out everything else.

 

[GWH]

No. What does the M stand for as it relates to the Free Will part of MFWist?

Short answer: Moral.

Long answer:

A problematic issue is reconciling God’s power and love with the fact of evil and its consequence. A person—even a theist—might think that God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist. People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?

God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons. For reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (MT 27:46, PS 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (ACTS 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (ACTS 17:28). Distanciation is not forsaken.

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word. God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.

Why would anyone choose to believe otherwise? Only God knows why people choose atheism. It is a mystery stated by Isaiah, which is cited by Jesus (in MT 13:14-15): “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused.” Apparently, this callous attitude demands God to nullify faith/MFW and thereby abrogate the essence of humanness by performing miracles in order to prove He exists (MT 12:39, 24:24, JN 20:29 & 1CR 1:22). In other words, atheists presume to know better than God; they want to usurp divine authority to determine what is best or good, but they may one day (at the eschaton per RV 20:15) wish they had admitted the possibility that God has ordained this mortal life on earth for the purpose of people proving to Him who is worthy of (qualified for) eternal life in heaven (cf. RM 2:5-8 & 2CR 13:5; heart/mind: hard or open?).

Such evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules. The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (MT 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per JN 17:12, RM 9:22, GL 6:8, PHP 3:19, 2THS 1:9, 2PT 3:7 & RV 20:13-14).