The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[sevoldoG]

I had a cousin who was always on fire for the Lord. Anytime I would call or run into him, he was somehow in the middle, or just finishing up helping others. It was like he was made for it. Hin and “good works just clicked.
He just recently cerebrated his thirtieth birthday when his life took a complete 180, while helping someone in his church, there was a truck on the highway that lost control. The passenger died, and he became a paraplegic. Able to only move his head.
For a guy who woke up at the crack of dawn, and was always on the move, you’d think he’d be miserable not being able to go, go, go, but to my amazement, he did not let one little whimper out aboht it. Nope, he was CONSUMED with fear that his salvation was on the line since he was unable to do any God glorifying good works.
I moved, was doing my own thing for about a decade when I decided to take a trip home to the stomping grounds. I has lost contact with my cousin, and he didn’t have the same number, so I just “popped in”.
I don’t like this part, but what I saw was not the same person I knew my entire childhood. In his dirty bed was an angry alcoholic with a scowling face, greasy hair, and a man who had denounced his faith. Not only denounced it, but turned against it.
He’s long since passed, and unfortunately that was the last time I saw him. I don’t know if he ever turned back around, but I can Remember that the last meeting I had with him had such an impact on me that I was still praying for him when I discovered he had passed nearly a year earlier. I want to contact someone who knew him and see if he ever did change his beliefs, but I’m a little intimidated to find the truth. It’s one, if not thee saddest story in my life. It really is.. do you people think he made it through the pearly gates? I haven’t a clue.

 

[sevoldoG]

I had a cousin who was always on fire for the Lord. Anytime I would call or run into him, he was somehow in the middle, or just finishing up helping others. It was like he was made for it. Hin and “good works just clicked.
He just recently cerebrated his thirtieth birthday when his life took a complete 180, while helping someone in his church, there was a truck on the highway that lost control. The passenger died, and he became a paraplegic. Able to only move his head.
For a guy who woke up at the crack of dawn, and was always on the move, you’d think he’d be miserable not being able to go, go, go, but to my amazement, he did not let one little whimper out aboht it. Nope, he was CONSUMED with fear that his salvation was on the line since he was unable to do any God glorifying good works.
I moved, was doing my own thing for about a decade when I decided to take a trip home to the stomping grounds. I has lost contact with my cousin, and he didn’t have the same number, so I just “popped in”.
I don’t like this part, but what I saw was not the same person I knew my entire childhood. In his dirty bed was an angry alcoholic with a scowling face, greasy hair, and a man who had denounced his faith. Not only denounced it, but turned against it.
He’s long since passed, and unfortunately that was the last time I saw him. I don’t know if he ever turned back around, but I can Remember that the last meeting I had with him had such an impact on me that I was still praying for him when I discovered he had passed nearly a year earlier. I want to contact someone who knew him and see if he ever did change his beliefs, but I’m a little intimidated to find the truth. It’s one, if not thee saddest story in my life. It really is.. do you people think he made it through the pearly gates? I haven’t a clue.

Well. Since it seems that only a certain people will be respnded to, I just want to say that the above story was a fabrication. It was written so the ones that ones who believe that they have one iota of a tiny measure of the smallest minute thing to do with their salvation will maybe see their blind ignorance.
They want to make their relationship with the highest, most wonderful, super-duper awesome creator of EVERYTHING both seen and unseen and make it to where they can rip their hand out of his and run into the highway to complete annihilation, and God couldn’t prevent it, or HE DIDN’T WANT TO!!!
STOP THWARTING THE DIVINE TRUTH THAT AFFECTS ONES ENTIRE LIFE AND BEING!!! YOURE WRONG!!!
And that being said, you’re probably not saved because the spirit of truth would teach you different! .
Not only do you spread lies about God’s divine truth, but you are argumentative about it. Sounds to me like Satan has your soul. Christ could have used a zillion bad descriptions of him, but he chose “the father of LIES!!
What a miserable life of imprisonment you live from second to second trying to guess if you’re keeping par for the prize! Christ says know the truth and the truth will MAKE you free. Not much wiggle room for having a part in any decision there now is there?!?
QUIT SPREADING ANTICHRIST TYPE LIES!!!


oh, ….. and In Christ I love and will pray for you. No sarcasm there. I truthfully am worried. May God bless and KEEP you!

 

[decipher]

So not saved unless we are baptised?

John 3: 5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The two different kinds of birth are of water and of the Spirit. "born of water" is explained in verse 6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. This verse also explains the same two types of birth. "Born of water" means "born of the flesh" and "born of the Spirit" means "a spiritual rebirth" which happens when we receive the Holy Spirit and become a new person with a changed motivation for living. It is Jesus Christ who baptizes in the name of the Holy Spirit, not people. John baptized with water, but someone greater than him will be baptizing with the Holy Spirit. Baptism with water is an old Jewish tradition and the first Christians were orthodox Jews. The Jews still practice water baptism for spiritual cleansing to this day.

 

[GWH]

Well. Since it seems that only a certain people will be respnded to, I just want to say that the above story was a fabrication. It was written so the ones that ones who believe that they have one iota of a tiny measure of the smallest minute thing to do with their salvation will maybe see their blind ignorance.
They want to make their relationship with the highest, most wonderful, super-duper awesome creator of EVERYTHING both seen and unseen and make it to where they can rip their hand out of his and run into the highway to complete annihilation, and God couldn’t prevent it, or HE DIDN’T WANT TO!!!
STOP THWARTING THE DIVINE TRUTH THAT AFFECTS ONES ENTIRE LIFE AND BEING!!! YOURE WRONG!!!
And that being said, you’re probably not saved because the spirit of truth would teach you different! .
Not only do you spread lies about God’s divine truth, but you are argumentative about it. Sounds to me like Satan has your soul. Christ could have used a zillion bad descriptions of him, but he chose “the father of LIES!!
What a miserable life of imprisonment you live from second to second trying to guess if you’re keeping par for the prize! Christ says know the truth and the truth will MAKE you free. Not much wiggle room for having a part in any decision there now is there?!?
QUIT SPREADING ANTICHRIST TYPE LIES!!!


oh, ….. and In Christ I love and will pray for you. No sarcasm there. I truthfully am worried. May God bless and KEEP you!

I wonder if this post was also a fabrication, demonstrating the judgmental attitude for some strange reason?

 

[sevoldoG]

I wonder if this post was also a fabrication, demonstrating the judgmental attitude for some strange reason?

It was out of character. If I look 👀 deep within, I was bothered that person who started this thread hit the ignore button on me when I simply asked him to answer two questions (and I felt I had weight with where I was going with it). And I was bothered that no one responded to my fabricated story (as being a heartfelt story no one knew it was fabricated) but yeah, I stepped out of character a little bit. Good call Monsieur. 😎

Alls I wanted was to be heard. 😢

 

[GWH]

It was out of character. If I look 👀 deep within, I was bothered that person who started this thread hit the ignore button on me when I simply asked him to answer two questions (and I felt I had weight with where I was going with it). And I was bothered that no one responded to my fabricated story (as being a heartfelt story no one knew it was fabricated) but yeah, I stepped out of character a little bit. Good call Monsieur. 😎

Alls I wanted was to be heard. 😢

Well good, and now that you have my attention,
please share again what you asked or wanted folks to hear.

 

[sevoldoG]

ONLY WHEN ONE LIES FALLEN IN THE DUST IN C O M P L E T E HUMILITY, CAN THEY SEE CLEARLY THAT THE FALLEN STATE OF MANKIND EVERYWHERE, IS NOT PRIMARILY IN NEED OF AN EXAMPLE, BUT A SAVIOR!

(Forget who to accredit this to, but I love ❤️ it) and I think it supports the truth, which is OSAS.

 

[GWH]

ONLY WHEN ONE LIES FALLEN IN THE DUST IN C O M P L E T E HUMILITY, CAN THEY SEE CLEARLY THAT THE FALLEN STATE OF MANKIND EVERYWHERE, IS NOT PRIMARILY IN NEED OF AN EXAMPLE, BUT A SAVIOR!

(Forget who to accredit this to, but I love ❤️ it) and I think it supports the truth, which is OSAS.

Don't see how that supports OSAS, but it reminds me of someone (the Prodigal Son?) saying something like
"Only when one lies in the gutter and looks up can they see clearly their need for a savior/the Father."

 

[Mem]

This is most certainly a OSAS issue.

You either believe salvation in the promises of God on being saved by Grace through the obedience of faith.

Or you believe salvation must be earned through allegiance to a manmade theology of faith alone regeneration.

People make this a works based issue, I believe it comes from a warped conflating of obedience and assistance...instead of looking the the word...they are trying to defend a theology without an example.

I believe that a permanence of salvation is attained by grace through faith because it is impossible to 'lose' the source of that grace or the object of that faith, the Son of God, since He lives forever to intercede for our sin, i.e. "...if we sin, we have an advocate that intercedes for us..."
So, I also believe it to be a logical assertion that, if it were possible to lose salvation then that would necessitate that we lose either grace or faith or both. But since Jesus is the source by which grace comes and also the object through which faith goes, I can't even imagine anyone who ever did have faith in the person of the Son, and knew Him, to ever even try to 'lose' Him like a bad date.

 

[Lamar]

I believe that a permanence of salvation is attained by grace through faith because it is impossible to 'lose' the source of that grace or the object of that faith, the Son of God,

Philosophy; "I believe that a permanence of salvation is attained by grace through faith because it is impossible to 'lose' the source of that grace or the object of that faith, the Son of God,"

Word of God: 1 Timothy 4:1 New International Version
"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Do not fool yourself, apostasy does exist.

 

[Trulyfree]

I’m new here but not new to discussing these things. To begin with, I once thought I was saved but wasn’t. However, I was never at rest. I had a lot of religious baggage in my head that wasn’t in the Bible. I finally saw the truth and placed my trust in Jesus alone for eternal life. But, I’ll leave my testimony for another time. By the way, I’m not a Calvinist, just to be clear. I’m not a fan of “boxes.”

First, I believe it best to stick to biblical terminology as much as is possible. I think the term “eternal security” is distracting from what is really at play here - eternal life. Can we lose eternal life?

Further, it seems a helpful prerequisite for this discussion would be, what makes a person a Christian? Perhaps for another thread…

Before getting to the verses that I believe clearly support: once-saved-always-saved, let me address a few more points…

1. Is it correct to say, “They were never saved. That’s why they apostatized?

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”
(1John 2:29) Makes clear that these professors left because they were not actually part of the body of Christ in the first place.

“On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not… do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I NEVER knew you; depart from me.” (Mat. 7:22-23) Jesus didn’t say, “I once knew you,” but, I never knew you.” In plain words, they hadn’t once been a Christian and then “lost their salvation.”

1. Also, a few helpful Bible study rules. Never use an obscure text to negate or interpret a clear statement of Scripture. Always take into account the context. Always know who is being addressed. “Saved” does not always refer to being born again. We can be saved from various things. And “falling away” from what?
2. Must be careful not to impose our experience upon the Scriptures. Our support must come from the Bible and not experiences - they can be misleading.
3. Supporting verses.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life.” (John 5:24) The one who places their confidence in Jesus alone for salvation becomes the immediate possessor of eternal life - not temporary life.

“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:13) Clearly we can know that we currently have eternal life.

“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” (Rom. 8:1)

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” (John 5:24)

“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” (Eph. 1:13-14)

“And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.” (Eph. 4:30)

“For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom. 8:38-39) Absolutely nothing can separate us from God’s love. Context reveals this is in respect to the Christian. Simply, nothing can end our relationship with God.

“I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” (John 10:28-29) Triple protection: in the Son’s hands, Father’s hands, sealed with the Holy Spirit.

“Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory…” (Jude 1:25-25) Onus is seen to be on the Saviour to bring us through to His glory.

“Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.” (Heb. 7:25) Jesus saves us to the uttermost because He is interceding for us!

“Our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful.” (1 Cor. 1:8-9) The Saviour sustains the born again Christian till the end.

I believe the conclusion is clear for those who desire to see the truth and gives genuine peace to the one who has trusted Christ for eternal life.

“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever BELIEVES in him may have ETERNAL life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever BELIEVES in him should not perish but have ETERNAL life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” (John 3:14-17)

Believe? Believe Jesus was the coming deliver - the Messiah - prophesied from the beginning of the Scriptures. The one who came to save us from our sins - even me.

Jesus offered us rest in himself. I believe osas is rest. If we can “lose our salvation,” then we cannot truly ever have rest - as we would constantly have to be concerned about us holding on, instead of Jesus holding onto us.

 

[Lamar]

Further, it seems a helpful prerequisite for this discussion would be, what makes a person a Christian? Perhaps for another thread…

This is the problem from the start.

Those that support OSAS are claiming that some people who believe they are saved (such as you) were in fact never in a saved state.

Simply put, is possible to be in a saved state and then leave that state?

In other words can a Christian become a non-Christian?

Those that support OSAS are suggesting that if a person leaves the Christian faith then that person was never in a Christian faith to leave. If this is true then apostasy cannot exist.

 

[GWH]

I’m new here but not new to discussing these things. To begin with, I once thought I was saved but wasn’t. However, I was never at rest. I had a lot of religious baggage in my head that wasn’t in the Bible. I finally saw the truth and placed my trust in Jesus alone for eternal life. But, I’ll leave my testimony for another time. By the way, I’m not a Calvinist, just to be clear. I’m not a fan of “boxes.”

First, I believe it best to stick to biblical terminology as much as is possible. I think the term “eternal security” is distracting from what is really at play here - eternal life. Can we lose eternal life?

Further, it seems a helpful prerequisite for this discussion would be, what makes a person a Christian? Perhaps for another thread…

Before getting to the verses that I believe clearly support: once-saved-always-saved, let me address a few more points…

1. Is it correct to say, “They were never saved. That’s why they apostatized?

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”
(1John 2:29) Makes clear that these professors left because they were not actually part of the body of Christ in the first place.

“On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not… do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I NEVER knew you; depart from me.” (Mat. 7:22-23) Jesus didn’t say, “I once knew you,” but, I never knew you.” In plain words, they hadn’t once been a Christian and then “lost their salvation.”

1. Also, a few helpful Bible study rules. Never use an obscure text to negate or interpret a clear statement of Scripture. Always take into account the context. Always know who is being addressed. “Saved” does not always refer to being born again. We can be saved from various things. And “falling away” from what?
2. Must be careful not to impose our experience upon the Scriptures. Our support must come from the Bible and not experiences - they can be misleading.
3. Supporting verses.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life.” (John 5:24) The one who places their confidence in Jesus alone for salvation becomes the immediate possessor of eternal life - not temporary life.

“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:13) Clearly we can know that we currently have eternal life.

“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” (Rom. 8:1)

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” (John 5:24)

“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” (Eph. 1:13-14)

“And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.” (Eph. 4:30)

“For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom. 8:38-39) Absolutely nothing can separate us from God’s love. Context reveals this is in respect to the Christian. Simply, nothing can end our relationship with God.

“I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” (John 10:28-29) Triple protection: in the Son’s hands, Father’s hands, sealed with the Holy Spirit.

“Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory…” (Jude 1:25-25) Onus is seen to be on the Saviour to bring us through to His glory.

“Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.” (Heb. 7:25) Jesus saves us to the uttermost because He is interceding for us!

“Our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful.” (1 Cor. 1:8-9) The Saviour sustains the born again Christian till the end.

I believe the conclusion is clear for those who desire to see the truth and gives genuine peace to the one who has trusted Christ for eternal life.

“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever BELIEVES in him may have ETERNAL life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever BELIEVES in him should not perish but have ETERNAL life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” (John 3:14-17)

Believe? Believe Jesus was the coming deliver - the Messiah - prophesied from the beginning of the Scriptures. The one who came to save us from our sins - even me.

Jesus offered us rest in himself. I believe osas is rest. If we can “lose our salvation,” then we cannot truly ever have rest - as we would constantly have to be concerned about us holding on, instead of Jesus holding onto us.

Welcome to CC. I also was raised to accept OSAS, but by reading Scripture I learned that it lacked sufficient support. IOW, when discussing a topic, one needs to consider verses cited to support both sides,

Re "“Saved” does not always refer to being born again. We can be saved from various things.": What other NT meanings do you find for saved?

Re "And “falling away” from what?": That term and "losing salvation" are strawmen. What the MFWist believes is that Scripture teaches the possibility of intentionally repudiating saving faith.

LIC

 

[FRB72]

All the language variables through the centuries of translation and versions,that's an interesting stance.

I certainly thought along those lines for a time. More recently, I have been surprised that despite the claims of critical text advocates, it appears that the text of the Bible has been preserved more faithfully than is popularly believed..

 

[sevoldoG]

Don't see how that supports OSAS, but it reminds me of someone (the Prodigal Son?) saying something like
"Only when one lies in the gutter and looks up can they see clearly their need for a savior/the Father."

The more I post the more I see how uneducated I really am

 

[sevoldoG]

please share again what you asked or wanted folks to hear.

I asked him to answer 2 questions:
1) Why do you love God?
2) in the lyrics of the song “Amazing Grace”, what line is it that let’s you know the writer had his salvation?
They may seem like silly questions, but there is a truth in both answers. I asked him this on the pretense that if he thought he was saved.

 

[bluejean_bible]

I certainly thought along those lines for a time. More recently, I have been surprised that despite the claims of critical text advocates, it appears that the text of the Bible has been preserved more faithfully than is popularly believed..

Did you see his lecture on this?

 

[GWH]

I asked him to answer 2 questions:
1) Why do you love God?
2) in the lyrics of the song “Amazing Grace”, what line is it that let’s you know the writer had his salvation?
They may seem like silly questions, but there is a truth in both answers. I asked him this on the pretense that if he thought he was saved.

Okay, I will answer:

1. Because God loves me.

2. Amazing grace, how sweet the sound That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now I'm found; Was blind, but now I see.
T'was grace that taught my heart to fear, And grace my fear relieved;
How precious did that grace appear The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares, We have already come.
T'was grace that brought us safe thus far, And grace will lead us home.
When we've been there ten thousand years Bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise Than when we've first begun.

 

[Mem]

Philosophy; "I believe that a permanence of salvation is attained by grace through faith because it is impossible to 'lose' the source of that grace or the object of that faith, the Son of God,"

Word of God: 1 Timothy 4:1 New International Version
"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Do not fool yourself, apostasy does exist.

Demons abandoned the faith themselves, so following deceiving spirits and things taught by demons is, in essence, following suit. That is, they possess the requirement that qualifies as belief but abandon any attempt to reach that requirement which qualifies for faith.

 

[TrustandObey]

Demons abandoned the faith themselves, so following deceiving spirits and things taught by demons is, in essence, following suit. That is, they possess the requirement that qualifies as belief but abandon any attempt to reach that requirement which qualifies for faith.

Word salad.