Of course, God loves those in whom he has graciously instilled the fear of Himself. Or for that matter loves those whose hearts He has circumcised so that they would be enabled to love Him. Don't you know that God's love is conditional in nature? A thrice holy God CANNOT love that which IS evil! And this is a truth that brings great comfort to my soul! What about you?
Understanding God’s election
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I'm comfortable. Thanks for asking.
Again, you're imbalanced and speak from a perspective that does not consider all Scripture - or better stated, changes Scripture to fit a camp-based theological tradition in a way that even some others in the camp wouldn't agree with.
Some of us see the vastness of God's love and "God is love" sufficiently to not allow your misinterpretations to lessen it. When He says He sent His Son which exemplified His love for the kosmos, I let His Word say that and add to my understanding of Him and His Word. But I'm not trapped by your presuppositions.
Again, you're imbalanced and speak from a perspective that does not consider all Scripture - or better stated, changes Scripture to fit a camp-based theological tradition in a way that even some others in the camp wouldn't agree with.
Some of us see the vastness of God's love and "God is love" sufficiently to not allow your misinterpretations to lessen it. When He says He sent His Son which exemplified His love for the kosmos, I let His Word say that and add to my understanding of Him and His Word. But I'm not trapped by your presuppositions.
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The "imbalance" is in your own mind. God's love is indeed vast -- infinitely vast -- because his love for his people is grounded in His Faithful and True Servant who truly is the Israel of God. God loves his chosen people not because of anything whatsoever in them -- but because of EVERYTHING that was and is in his Beloved Son! He even loved his own Son because he was obedient!
Okay, here goes:
Lev 26:30 - 'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols; for My soul shall abhor you." The OT often did not seem cognizant of the NT teaching that God loves everyone but hates evil behavior (MT 5:44&48, JN 3:16, 1TM 2:3-4, 2PT 3:9).
Deut 25:16 - For the LORD your God detests anyone who does these things, anyone who deals dishonestly.: Ditto.
Job 12:21-22 - "He pours contempt on nobles, And loosens the belt of the strong. 22 "He reveals mysteries from the darkness,
And brings the deep darkness into light.: Ditto.
Ps 5:5-6 - The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity. Thou dost destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.: Ditto.
Ps 11:5 - 5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates.: Ditto.
Ps 73:18-20 - Surely Thou dost set them in slippery places; Thou dost cast them down to destruction. How they are destroyed in a moment! They are utterly swept away by sudden terrors! Like a dream when one awakes, O Lord, when aroused, Thou wilt despise their form.: Ditto.
Ps 95:10-11 - "For forty years I loathed that generation, And said they are a people who err in their heart, And they do not know My ways. "Therefore I swore in My anger, Truly they shall not enter into My rest.": Ditto.
Ps 106:40 - Therefore the anger of the Lord was kindled against His people, And He abhorred His inheritance.: Ditto.
Ps 107:40 - He pours contempt upon princes, And makes them wander in a pathless waste.: Ditto.
Prov 3:32 - For the crooked man is an abomination to the Lord; But He is intimate with the upright.: Ditto.
Prov 6:16-19 - There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.: Ditto.
Prov 11:20 - The LORD detests men of perverse heart but he delights in those whose ways are blameless.: Ditto.
Jer 12:8 - My inheritance has become to me like a lion in the forest. She roars at me; therefore I hate her.: Ditto.
Jer 16:5 - For this is what the LORD says: "Do not enter a house where there is a funeral meal; do not go to mourn or show sympathy, because I have withdrawn my blessing, my love and my pity from this people," declares the LORD.: Ditto.
Lam 2:6-7 - And He has violently treated His tabernacle like a garden booth; He has destroyed His appointed meeting place;
The Lord has caused to be forgotten The appointed feast and sabbath in Zion, And He has despised king and priest In the indignation of His anger. The Lord has rejected His altar,": Ditto.
Hos 9:15 - All their evil is at Gilgal; Indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds
I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.: Ditto.
Nah 1:14 The Lord has issued a command concerning you: "Your name will no longer be perpetuated.
I will cut off idol and image From the house of your gods. I will prepare your grave, For you are contemptible.": Ditto.
Dan 12:2 - "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.: Ditto.
Rom 9:13 - Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.": I seem to remember it being explained that this is an OT way of expressing preference rather than love or hatred.
Re "P.S. All the above was inspired by the God above who is Love. So stuff all the above passages into your hash pipe and puff on it and then maybe you and PT can put your two hat racks together and "critically analyze" the texts to see how they all fit into the woven fabric of all scripture.": So, I notice that you only cite one NT Scripture and deny NT teaching that God loves everyone. Why is that? Aren't you a Christian?
Lev 26:30 - 'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols; for My soul shall abhor you." The OT often did not seem cognizant of the NT teaching that God loves everyone but hates evil behavior (MT 5:44&48, JN 3:16, 1TM 2:3-4, 2PT 3:9).
Deut 25:16 - For the LORD your God detests anyone who does these things, anyone who deals dishonestly.: Ditto.
Job 12:21-22 - "He pours contempt on nobles, And loosens the belt of the strong. 22 "He reveals mysteries from the darkness,
And brings the deep darkness into light.: Ditto.
Ps 5:5-6 - The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity. Thou dost destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.: Ditto.
Ps 11:5 - 5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates.: Ditto.
Ps 73:18-20 - Surely Thou dost set them in slippery places; Thou dost cast them down to destruction. How they are destroyed in a moment! They are utterly swept away by sudden terrors! Like a dream when one awakes, O Lord, when aroused, Thou wilt despise their form.: Ditto.
Ps 95:10-11 - "For forty years I loathed that generation, And said they are a people who err in their heart, And they do not know My ways. "Therefore I swore in My anger, Truly they shall not enter into My rest.": Ditto.
Ps 106:40 - Therefore the anger of the Lord was kindled against His people, And He abhorred His inheritance.: Ditto.
Ps 107:40 - He pours contempt upon princes, And makes them wander in a pathless waste.: Ditto.
Prov 3:32 - For the crooked man is an abomination to the Lord; But He is intimate with the upright.: Ditto.
Prov 6:16-19 - There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.: Ditto.
Prov 11:20 - The LORD detests men of perverse heart but he delights in those whose ways are blameless.: Ditto.
Jer 12:8 - My inheritance has become to me like a lion in the forest. She roars at me; therefore I hate her.: Ditto.
Jer 16:5 - For this is what the LORD says: "Do not enter a house where there is a funeral meal; do not go to mourn or show sympathy, because I have withdrawn my blessing, my love and my pity from this people," declares the LORD.: Ditto.
Lam 2:6-7 - And He has violently treated His tabernacle like a garden booth; He has destroyed His appointed meeting place;
The Lord has caused to be forgotten The appointed feast and sabbath in Zion, And He has despised king and priest In the indignation of His anger. The Lord has rejected His altar,": Ditto.
Hos 9:15 - All their evil is at Gilgal; Indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds
I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.: Ditto.
Nah 1:14 The Lord has issued a command concerning you: "Your name will no longer be perpetuated.
I will cut off idol and image From the house of your gods. I will prepare your grave, For you are contemptible.": Ditto.
Dan 12:2 - "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.: Ditto.
Rom 9:13 - Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.": I seem to remember it being explained that this is an OT way of expressing preference rather than love or hatred.
Re "P.S. All the above was inspired by the God above who is Love. So stuff all the above passages into your hash pipe and puff on it and then maybe you and PT can put your two hat racks together and "critically analyze" the texts to see how they all fit into the woven fabric of all scripture.": So, I notice that you only cite one NT Scripture and deny NT teaching that God loves everyone. Why is that? Aren't you a Christian?
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So...your solution is to dichotomize both testaments? Did one of your gods inspire the Old and another of your gods inspire the New? Or is the God of the bible mutable? Did God assume one character for the Old and a different one for the New? Or maybe all the OT isn't divinely inspired, and all the passages I quoted were mere ideas of men?
Paul quoted Mal 1:2-3 in the Rom 9 passage. The Heb term saanee'ity (Strong's 8130) is used in Mal 1:3. And for your info, the very same term is used in Ps 5:5; 11:5; Prov 6:16, etc. Here's how BLB.Classic defines the term:
https://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H8130&t=KJV&page=4
It certainly doesn't take very much for you to so easily and offhandedly dismiss the OT scriptures, does it? Or to pit both testaments against one another?
Paul quoted Mal 1:2-3 in the Rom 9 passage. The Heb term saanee'ity (Strong's 8130) is used in Mal 1:3. And for your info, the very same term is used in Ps 5:5; 11:5; Prov 6:16, etc. Here's how BLB.Classic defines the term:
https://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H8130&t=KJV&page=4
- to hate, be hateful
- (Qal) to hate
- of man
- of God
- hater, one hating, enemy (participle) (subst)
- (Niphal) to be hated
- (Piel) hater (participle)
- of persons, nations, God, wisdom
- (Qal) to hate
It certainly doesn't take very much for you to so easily and offhandedly dismiss the OT scriptures, does it? Or to pit both testaments against one another?
God's love is so vast and infinite that He only loves His people and hates the rest and sent His Son to die for and to offer salvation only to His people whom He elected in eternity past, and etc., etc. This is God created in your own imbalanced image of Him. So, yes, in my mind based upon how I read His Word, you are imbalanced and actually quite profane.
I just thought of this. We know there are those who claim eternal irrevocable salvation proponents are in error because that doctrine is Calvanist and a license to sin.
What about those who insist those who are eternally saved are no longer required to observe and respect the laws of God?
His ten commandments come to mind.
What about those who insist those who are eternally saved are no longer required to observe and respect the laws of God?
His ten commandments come to mind.
No, my solution is for all of us to agree about the main thing:
The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
- There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
- Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
- Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
- Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
- Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
Your error is that Christ died for all men, which is heretical. He died for Abraham's descendants. Period. To say that Christ died FOR all, and yet in the next breath tell us..."but of course a sinner must exercise his "freewill" in order to apply and make effective that death for himself. Since the final determinant is sinners' will power, then your heresy clearly implies that the sinner ultimately puts himself into Christ by his own doing, which contradicts 1Cor 1:30. Also, it's an outright lie to say that Christ died for all, since you limit the atonement qualitatively. If you're going to lie about the qualitative extent of Christ's death, then you should at least represent it for what it really is: Christ potentially died for all. At least those of us in the Reformed Tradition do not have to lie; for most of us tell people the truth: Christ [effectually] died for all those who believe in Him.
And I'm "profane" because I give all the credit for man's salvation to whom it belongs: God who purposed salvation, Christ who accomplished his Father's plan and the Holy Spirit who applies salvation to sinners' souls? Fine. I'll let God be be the judge of which of us is profane and blasphemous. But you, as far as I'm concerned, epitomize the thief and robber Jesus spoke of because in your false gospel sinners get to steal some of God's glory and praise for themselves, which is an abomination to God (Isa 42:8, 11). The god of your belly clearly is Human Volition!
And I'm "profane" because I give all the credit for man's salvation to whom it belongs: God who purposed salvation, Christ who accomplished his Father's plan and the Holy Spirit who applies salvation to sinners' souls? Fine. I'll let God be be the judge of which of us is profane and blasphemous. But you, as far as I'm concerned, epitomize the thief and robber Jesus spoke of because in your false gospel sinners get to steal some of God's glory and praise for themselves, which is an abomination to God (Isa 42:8, 11). The god of your belly clearly is Human Volition!
You didn't answer any of my objections. It's crystal clear to me that you merely sweep all those passages I quoted under the rug. In fact, this is your way of suppressing the truth that is very inconvenient to your false gospel. It appears you think those passages were not divinely inspired or God isn't immutable.
You even gave as a reason why we should categorically reject the OT passages as being:
The OT often did not seem cognizant of the NT teaching that God loves everyone but hates evil behavior (MT 5:44&48, JN 3:16, 1TM 2:3-4, 2PT 3:9).
First, you make it sound that the "OT" had a mind and awareness of its own.
But it gets far worse: Just HOW was "the OT" supposed to be "cognizant of the NT teaching" when it was written many centuries befoer the NT was? And then thirdly, you quote a few NT passages that are all taken out of context and/or read into with your worldly presuppositions.
You even gave as a reason why we should categorically reject the OT passages as being:
The OT often did not seem cognizant of the NT teaching that God loves everyone but hates evil behavior (MT 5:44&48, JN 3:16, 1TM 2:3-4, 2PT 3:9).
First, you make it sound that the "OT" had a mind and awareness of its own.
But it gets far worse: Just HOW was "the OT" supposed to be "cognizant of the NT teaching" when it was written many centuries befoer the NT was? And then thirdly, you quote a few NT passages that are all taken out of context and/or read into with your worldly presuppositions.
There are a lot of Pelagian heretics here... with seemingly zero comprehension
of there being a distinction between the natural man and the spiritual man.
John 3.19-20 and from Psalm 10.4 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come
into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. The wicked reviles the Lord
of there being a distinction between the natural man and the spiritual man.
John 3.19-20 and from Psalm 10.4 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come
into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. The wicked reviles the Lord
This is how such a simple and fundamental truth can be so elusive to them. It's truly sad and this isn't something to say lightly, but this is the only conclusion I can come to. They just can't see or hear it yet because they have only ever had the one nature, and it also follows that this is why their every position seems to elevate man and lower God's power, this can only be done by those who do not know His power. Once they truly experience the spirit resurrecting, old man killing, new birth giving, reconciling POWER of the one true Creator that completely changes you in ways you CANNOT claim you did, and ALWAYS say He did, to testify of His power and point others to Him and away from "you". I just don't believe their words testify of this God, the real God that deserves ALL credit and ALL glory.
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And another thing that I forgot, Mr. GWH, is that you also said earlier re Rom 9:13 that the text doesn't really mean what it clearly says: Rather it means that God simply preferred Jacob over Esau. Two things are wrong with this statement: A) You obviously did not look up the definition of the Gr. term rendered "hate" nor did you do a word study to show how it's used in the NT. And B), you don't reveal to us why God preferred Jacob over Esau.
Moreover, how do you apply your personal preferred presupposition of God's preference to a text like Ps 5:5-6? What was God preferring in that passage since there are no comparisons or contrasts being made therein?
Moreover, how do you apply your personal preferred presupposition of God's preference to a text like Ps 5:5-6? What was God preferring in that passage since there are no comparisons or contrasts being made therein?
You didn't answer any of my objections. It's crystal clear to me that you merely sweep all those passages I quoted under the rug. In fact, this is your way of suppressing the truth that is very inconvenient to your false gospel. It appears you think those passages were not divinely inspired or God isn't immutable.
You even gave as a reason why we should categorically reject the OT passages as being:
The OT often did not seem cognizant of the NT teaching that God loves everyone but hates evil behavior (MT 5:44&48, JN 3:16, 1TM 2:3-4, 2PT 3:9).
First, you make it sound that the "OT" had a mind and awareness of its own. But it gets far worse: Just HOW was "the OT" supposed to be "cognizant of the NT teaching" when it was written many centuries befoer the NT was? And then thirdly, you quote a few NT passages that are all taken out of context and/or read into with your worldly presuppositions.
You even gave as a reason why we should categorically reject the OT passages as being:
The OT often did not seem cognizant of the NT teaching that God loves everyone but hates evil behavior (MT 5:44&48, JN 3:16, 1TM 2:3-4, 2PT 3:9).
First, you make it sound that the "OT" had a mind and awareness of its own.
But it gets far worse: Just HOW was "the OT" supposed to be "cognizant of the NT teaching" when it was written many centuries befoer the NT was? And then thirdly, you quote a few NT passages that are all taken out of context and/or read into with your worldly presuppositions.
And I believe it is more important not to argue than to be anal about secondary doctrine. HAND
Strawman Fallacy-A straw man fallacy occurs when someone misrepresents or exaggerates another person's argument and then attacks that distorted version instead of addressing the original point. This tactic is often used in debates to create the illusion of winning an argument without engaging with the actual issues.
I'm not posting a strawman fallacy. And I'm not going to go through every thread and copy a link to those posts that contain the piv that I earlier referred to.
I'm not posting a strawman fallacy. And I'm not going to go through every thread and copy a link to those posts that contain the piv that I earlier referred to.