Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

Re JN 17:9 - You ignore v.20.

Re JN 14:15-24 - Jesus indicated the world in v.23 "Anyone..."

Re MT 7:21-23 - Jesus warned against falsely claiming to have saving faith.

You don't read too swell. Jn 17:20 is talking about the elect. Don't you remember Jesus teaching earlier that he has TWO flocks of sheep -- and that the two would become one!?

Re Jn 14:23: Again, Jesus is referring to any of the elect since the world naturally hates Christ. Remember: Jesus refused to show himself to the world after he rose from the dead!

And Mat 7:21-23 is still talking about the non-elect that he never knew. But God certainly knows who his chosen ones are. What applies to false believers applies to the rest of the unbelieving world. Since Jesus never knew the phony baloney believers, then he would also never know all the other types of unbelievers, i.e. atheists, agnostics, pantheists, deists, etc, etc.

 

[studier]

Give me chapter and verse on God hating "the evil choices of Esau". Thanks.

Start with reading Mal1 and realize it's about 1,400 years after the birth of Jacob & Esau and God saying Esau would serve Jacob. Track down through the life of Esau and the people of Edom vs. Jacob and Israel and ask yourself what God is referring to in Mal and how Paul is using and summarizing over a millennium of history in a couple quotes. God's Plan stands and it played out in history.

I don't really think you're interested in learning, but the NET Bible has some interesting notes re: Mal1:3:

3 tn Heb "and I loved Jacob, but Esau I hated." The context indicates this is technical covenant vocabulary in which "love" and "hate" are synonymous with "choose" and "reject" respectively (see Deut 7:8; Jer 31:3; Hos 3:1; 9:15; 11:1).​

4 tn Heb "his"; the referent (Esau) has been specified in the translation for clarity.​

5 tn Heb "I set his mountains as a desolation."​

6 tn Or "inheritance" (so NIV, NLT).​

 

[studier]

@GWH

Sorry. I should have copied you on post #10,822

 

[GWH]

You don't read too swell. Jn 17:20 is talking about the elect. Don't you remember Jesus teaching earlier that he has TWO flocks of sheep -- and that the two would become one!?

Re Jn 14:23: Again, Jesus is referring to any of the elect since the world naturally hates Christ. Remember: Jesus refused to show himself to the world after he rose from the dead!

And Mat 7:21-23 is still talking about the non-elect that he never knew. But God certainly knows who his chosen ones are. What applies to false believers applies to the rest of the unbelieving world. Since Jesus never knew the phony baloney believers, then he would also never know all the other types of unbelievers, i.e. atheists, agnostics, pantheists, deists, etc, etc.

v. 20 says the world, not the elect; ditto JN 3:16.
MT 28:19 says all nations, not the elect.
1TM 2:3-4 says all people, not the elect.
Rufus says two flocks, becoming one.

Now it is up to the disciples of Jesus to show him to the world via reflecting His love (JN 13:35).

 

[bluejean_bible]

And we're supposed to take your word for that, as though you sport infallible opinions?

You may do as you wish.

 

[Rufus]

Start with reading Mal1 and realize it's about 1,400 years after the birth of Jacob & Esau and God saying Esau would serve Jacob. Track down through the life of Esau and the people of Edom vs. Jacob and Israel and ask yourself what God is referring to in Mal and how Paul is using and summarizing over a millennium of history in a couple quotes. God's Plan stands and it played out in history.

I don't really think you're interested in learning, but the NET Bible has some interesting notes re: Mal1:3:

3 tn Heb "and I loved Jacob, but Esau I hated." The context indicates this is technical covenant vocabulary in which "love" and "hate" are synonymous with "choose" and "reject" respectively (see Deut 7:8; Jer 31:3; Hos 3:1; 9:15; 11:1).​

4 tn Heb "his"; the referent (Esau) has been specified in the translation for clarity.​

5 tn Heb "I set his mountains as a desolation."​

6 tn Or "inheritance" (so NIV, NLT).​

You start reading Rom 9 in which Paul assures his audience that in spite of Israel's apostasy God's promises have not failed since not all Jews are created equal! Just as to the Jewish mind, there are two kinds of people in this world (Jews and Gentiles), likewise Paul reveals there are two kinds of Jews -- natural descendants and spiritual descendants (i.e. children of promise). Paul argument in Rom 9 has NOTHING do with the nations of Israel and Edom per se but has everything to do with divine election of two individuals and divine rejection of three individuals. The election of Jacob over Esau, (as well as Isaac and Ishmael) took place in eternity long before either of the twins did anything good or bad. All Paul is doing to make his case is use four individual descendants of Abraham as examples of divine election.

And what part of verse 11 can't you understand? Or what part of vv. 14-24 are too difficult for you? I don't know about your god, but mine in heaven does whatever pleases him (Ps 115:3). So now...why don't you go cry me a river and whine and complain about how awful the God of the bible is -- what a tyrant, or a bully whose choices are fickle and capricious and arbitrary -- all of which, of course, make him worse than Hitler.

 

[Rufus]

You may do as you wish.

Let God be true and every man a liar!

 

[bluejean_bible]

Let God be true and every man a liar!

Woe to that one who invokes God as the agent for their personal attack against others.

My deepest sympathies.
May God forgive you.

 

[Rufus]

v. 20 says the world, not the elect; ditto JN 3:16.
MT 28:19 says all nations, not the elect.
1TM 2:3-4 says all people, not the elect.
Rufus says two flocks, becoming one.

Now it is up to the disciples of Jesus to show him to the world via reflecting His love (JN 13:35).

Jn 17:20 reads:

John 17:20-23
20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
NIV

I don't see anything about the "world" in v.20. Fantasize much?

Do you see what v.21 says? Have you figured out who the second group is that will be joined to the one in 17:9? Of course you haven't. So, let me help you out:

John 17:9
9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
NIV

So, we're supposed to believe you and believe that Jesus contradicted himself!?

In John 10 the Good Shepherd Discourse, Jesus said in part:

John 10:16
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
NIV

Who do you think the two flocks are in John 10 and 17?

The Father did not give Jesus the entire world of humanity w/o exception. Hate to ruin your pipe dream...

 

[Rufus]

Woe to that one who invokes God as the agent for their personal attack against others.

My deepest sympathies.
May God forgive you.

God is always truthful. Men not so much; for the hearts of men are desperately wicked and deceitful above all else. Who can understand it (Jer 17:9)?

Save your sympathies for yourself and other FWs here who worship the god of your bellies known as Volition. May God have mercy on such souls who think God doesn't notice that all of you FWs want to rob a jealous God of his glory!

 

[GWH]

Jn 17:20 reads:

John 17:20-23
20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
NIV

I don't see anything about the "world" in v.20. Fantasize much?

Do you see what v.21 says? Have you figured out who the second group is that will be joined to the one in 17:9? Of course you haven't. So, let me help you out:

John 17:9
9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
NIV

So, we're supposed to believe you and believe that Jesus contradicted himself!?

In John 10 the Good Shepherd Discourse, Jesus said in part:

John 10:16
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
NIV

Who do you think the two flocks are in John 10 and 17?

The Father did not give Jesus the entire world of humanity w/o exception. Hate to ruin your pipe dream...

I see the world in those who will believe in me through their message,
which is the all nations the disciples are commanded to evangelize and the other sheep.
I do not see any contradiction, merely your accusation of fantasy.

 

[studier]

You start reading Rom 9 in which Paul assures his audience that in spite of Israel's apostasy God's promises have not failed since not all Jews are created equal! Just as to the Jewish mind, there are two kinds of people in this world (Jews and Gentiles), likewise Paul reveals there are two kinds of Jews -- natural descendants and spiritual descendants (i.e. children of promise). Paul argument in Rom 9 has NOTHING do with the nations of Israel and Edom per se but has everything to do with divine election of two individuals and divine rejection of three individuals. The election of Jacob over Esau, (as well as Isaac and Ishmael) took place in eternity long before either of the twins did anything good or bad. All Paul is doing to make his case is use four individual descendants of Abraham as examples of divine election.

And what part of verse 11 can't you understand? Or what part of vv. 14-24 are too difficult for you? I don't know about your god, but mine in heaven does whatever pleases him (Ps 115:3). So now...why don't you go cry me a river and whine and complain about how awful the God of the bible is -- what a tyrant, or a bully whose choices are fickle and capricious and arbitrary -- all of which, of course, make him worse than Hitler.

Your comments are really quite twisted. Something is quite wrong with you. I recall one poster probably in the earlier section of this monster thread reading you for a short time and soon going into a psychoanalysis about you. I understood why then and still do.

Your commentary was about love vs. hate re: Jacob and Esau. It's been answered by @GWH and by the NET Bible team and by the fact that Paul was covering well over a thousand years of history in his brief comment with 2 Scripture references. It's more about God's covenant faithfulness following God's selection of Jacob who became Israel than it is about any personal attitude of God's love and hate. And if you read the history of Esau and Edom, let alone Malachi, what's the issue re: what he became?

BTW, I have no issue with the fact that God hates sin, and our Lord loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. What's more at issue here is your horrible interpretation of Scripture, your making God in your image, and your treatment of siblings in Christ over one of many traditions of interpretations of Scripture. Honestly, I don't think I've ever read someone as perverse as you presenting himself as Christian.

 

[Rufus]

I see the world in those who will believe in me through their message,
which is the all nations the disciples are commanded to evangelize and the other sheep.
I do not see any contradiction, merely your accusation of fantasy.

You see a lot of things that aren't in scripture. And to make matters even worse, you don't see things that are clearly in the Word. Jesus prayed for TWO groups of elect that, of course, are IN the world -- but not OF it; for all God's people are called to come out of the world.

John 17:6
6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me OUT OF the world.
NIV

And,

John 17:16
16 They are not OF the world, even as I am not OF it
NIV

Jesus' prayer, therefore, are for all those whom the Father has given him; and the Father has not given to Jesus every person in the world w/o exception.

 

[Rufus]

Your comments are really quite twisted. Something is quite wrong with you. I recall one poster probably in the earlier section of this monster thread reading you for a short time and soon going into a psychoanalysis about you. I understood why then and still do.

Your commentary was about love vs. hate re: Jacob and Esau. It's been answered by @GWH and by the NET Bible team and by the fact that Paul was covering well over a thousand years of history in his brief comment with 2 Scripture references. It's more about God's covenant faithfulness following God's selection of Jacob who became Israel than it is about any personal attitude of God's love and hate. And if you read the history of Esau and Edom, let alone Malachi, what's the issue re: what he became?

BTW, I have no issue with the fact that God hates sin, and our Lord loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. What's more at issue here is your horrible interpretation of Scripture, your making God in your image, and your treatment of siblings in Christ over one of many traditions of interpretations of Scripture. Honestly, I don't think I've ever read someone as perverse as you presenting himself as Christian.

Yes, you have no issue with the fact that God hates sin, but you loathe the many scriptures that teach that he also hates unrepentant sinners. Don't you know that God sees the hearts of all men; yet, at the same time his eyes are too pure to behold evil (Hab 1:13) -- which is what unregenerate hearts are! We're supposed to believe that while God hates sin and lawlessness, nonetheless he loves those whose hearts are the wellspring, the fountainhead of all wickedness and evil! I suppose you're going to tell us next that God loves Satan himself, right, since you think He loves Satan's seed.

And you totally ignore HOW Paul used that history to show that God's promises to Israel have not failed. The entire point to Rom 9 is that God had elect individuals within an elect nation! Neither Ishmael or Esau were brought into the Abrhamic Covenant. Or for that matter was Pharaoh.

Rom 9:1-13
9:1 I speak the truth in Christ — I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."

10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad — in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls — she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
NIV

Issac and Jacob were children of promise; the other two children were merely natural descendants of Abraham, which spiritually doesn't count for diddly squat. In short, God has always had an ELECT remnant of Jews who were children of promise within national Israel -- just like he had in Elijah's day with the 7,000 who never bowed the knee to Baal. ELECTION is the central point to Rom 9 not a history lesson per se. All Paul does is use real historical entities to make his theological argument and prove his point.

Now...run off and play in your god's litter box wherein you burn incense to it and stroke his belly.

 

[GWH]

You see a lot of things that aren't in scripture. And to make matters even worse, you don't see things that are clearly in the Word. Jesus prayed for TWO groups of elect that, of course, are IN the world -- but not OF it; for all God's people are called to come out of the world.

John 17:6
6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me OUT OF the world.
NIV

And,

John 17:16
16 They are not OF the world, even as I am not OF it
NIV

Jesus' prayer, therefore, are for all those whom the Father has given him; and the Father has not given to Jesus every person in the world w/o exception.

Of course Jesus realized that not everyone in the world would be converted!
You see things that aren't in my posts.

 

[Rufus]

WHAT IS HOLY HATRED?​

Here is a link to a decent article regarding God's and King David's holy hatred and why this kind of hatred is not only logically necessary but even more importantly is thoroughly biblical. There is, however, a disappointing omission in the article which by God's grace I will deal with separately later. While the author talks about God's grace toward sinners, he fails to see (apparently) that that grace is driven by God's love! Therefore, talking about God's grace that he bestows in and upon sinners truly begs the question big time. How can God's grace, driven by His love for [elect] sinners, be possible when God also hates those sinners? This is what I hope to address later. But meanwhile here is the article.

https://pastoredcollins.org/view/what-is-holy-hatred

Also, for those of us who take to heart Solomon's warning against embracing, endorsing or supporting extremes, we should listen to him.

Eccl 7:18c
...The man who fears God will avoid all [extremes].
NIV

It appears we have several here who don't fear God, as evidenced by the unjustifiable and unwarranted and juvenile reactions to the Doctrine of God's Holy Hatred and this doctrine's rejection. The simple-minded apparently think that because God is Love (1Jn 4:8, 16) that it would be totally out of character for him to "hate" (absence of love) that which IS evil. The hopelessly naive evidently think that evil is defined only by outward manifestations of sin, e.g. sexual immorality, adultery, fornication, murder, thefts, idolatry, etc., etc.., completely forgetting that all these sins find their source in man's evil heart (Mat 15:16-20). Sins exist in the heart before they are manifested outwardly. Not only that but we don't see all sin. We fallible, finite mortals cannot see the evil thoughts of sinners; yet, one's thought life can be quite vile and wicked!

Moreover, God even tells us that there is indeed a time to [rightfully] hate -- just like there is a time to love!

Eccl 3:1-8
1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven:

2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.
NIV

It is right and proper, therefore, to not only hate sinful "things" but to actually hate the people whose evil hearts manifested those evil things.

Also, many of us have forgotten that Love can do no wrong (Rom 13:8-10)! One of the intrinsic characteristics of love it that it is a virtue. At it's core love is moral/spiritual in nature. If God loved that which is intrinsically evil, he would be loving evil itself! And I, for one, could never trust anyone -- anyone at all -- who loves evil. If God loves what is intrinsically evil, who could ever say with certainty that God himself would not go over to the dark side and do evil? Also, if God were to love what is evil, he would be breaking his own law since love is the fulfillment of the Law! How could a holy God love anything or anyone that is antithetical to his Holy Law?

And besides, even God's people are called upon to hate evil and love good (Am 5:15). It's noteworthy that this particular passage does not enjoin the saints to hate sin -- which must be limited to the physical manifestations of evil. But we're called upon to hate evil or what IS evil itself and to love good or what IS good!

One last thing: Since there are several here that think it perfectly fine to love evil people, I must ask you this: Do you personally love the Devil? And if not, why not, since Christ's disciples are commanded to love our fellow man? Then why not love evil spiritual entities as well? You FWs would be very quick to tell us that you love God who is pure spirit and invisible, so why not love the devil as well?

 

[Rufus]

Of course Jesus realized that not everyone in the world would be converted!
You see things that aren't in my posts.

So, you're finally coming around to seeing that he didn't pray for the non-elect? Yet...according to your interpretation of a text like Jn 3:16 God so loved all men in this world w/o exception. But now you're saying that Jesus made an exception since he prayed only for those God gave him. Confused much?

 

[GWH]

WHAT IS HOLY HATRED?​

Here is a link to a decent article regarding God's and King David's holy hatred and why this kind of hatred is not only logically necessary but even more importantly is thoroughly biblical. There is, however, a disappointing omission in the article which by God's grace I will deal with separately later. While the author talks about God's grace toward sinners, he fails to see (apparently) that that grace is driven by God's love! Therefore, talking about God's grace that he bestows in and upon sinners truly begs the question big time. How can God's grace, driven by His love for [elect] sinners, be possible when God also hates those sinners? This is what I hope to address later. But meanwhile here is the article.

https://pastoredcollins.org/view/what-is-holy-hatred

Also, for those of us who take to heart Solomon's warning against embracing, endorsing or supporting extremes, we should listen to him.

Eccl 7:18c
...The man who fears God will avoid all [extremes].
NIV

It appears we have several here who don't fear God, as evidenced by the unjustifiable and unwarranted and juvenile reactions to the Doctrine of God's Holy Hatred and this doctrine's rejection. The simple-minded apparently think that because God is Love (1Jn 4:8, 16) that it would be totally out of character for him to "hate" (absence of love) that which IS evil. The hopelessly naive evidently think that evil is defined only by outward manifestations of sin, e.g. sexual immorality, adultery, fornication, murder, thefts, idolatry, etc., etc.., completely forgetting that all these sins find their source in man's evil heart (Mat 15:16-20). Sins exist in the heart before they are manifested outwardly. Not only that but we don't see all sin. We fallible, finite mortals cannot see the evil thoughts of sinners; yet, one's thought life can be quite vile and wicked!

Moreover, God even tells us that there is indeed a time to [rightfully] hate -- just like there is a time to love!

Eccl 3:1-8
1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven:

2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.
NIV

It is right and proper, therefore, to not only hate sinful "things" but to actually hate the people whose evil hearts manifested those evil things.

Also, many of us have forgotten that Love can do no wrong (Rom 13:8-10)! One of the intrinsic characteristics of love it that it is a virtue. At it's core love is moral/spiritual in nature. If God loved that which is intrinsically evil, he would be loving evil itself! And I, for one, could never trust anyone -- anyone at all -- who loves evil. If God loves what is intrinsically evil, who could ever say with certainty that God himself would not go over to the dark side and do evil? Also, if God were to love what is evil, he would be breaking his own law since love is the fulfillment of the Law! How could a holy God love anything or anyone that is antithetical to his Holy Law?

And besides, even God's people are called upon to hate evil and love good (Am 5:15). It's noteworthy that this particular passage does not enjoin the saints to hate sin -- which must be limited to the physical manifestations of evil. But we're called upon to hate evil or what IS evil itself and to love good or what IS good!

One last thing: Since there are several here that think it perfectly fine to love evil people, I must ask you this: Do you personally love the Devil? And if not, why not, since Christ's disciples are commanded to love our fellow man? Then why not love evil spiritual entities as well? You FWs would be very quick to tell us that you love God who is pure spirit and invisible, so why not love the devil as well?

The right time to love sinners is at all times, and the right time to hate sin is at all times.

 

[Magenta]

God even tells us that there is indeed a time to [rightfully] hate -- just like there is a time to love!

Eccl 3 verses 1-8

1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven:

2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.
NIV

Ecclesiastes 3 verses 1-8

 

[studier]

WHAT IS HOLY HATRED?

16 These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, 19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren. (Prov. 6:16-19 NKJ)

Did you miss this one?