The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[studier]

An observation. Can not explain it any other way.. Can you give me another reason?

Observations don't normally contain question marks. So, it was an assertion hiding under a question mark.

I attempted to work through all of this as I see fit to work through it apart from buying into premises I disagree with. If you'd like to, you can continue to read what I have to say and go from there.

We agree 100 percent on this.

I don't see how we can be in 100% agreement because what I described is "cooperation" with God which you previously said does not happen in our Salvation Process. Have I misunderstood you?

Do we agree on why?

Don't know. My guess would be, No, but it's early in our relationship.

eph 2: 10. those created in Christ Jesus having been saved completely by grace through faith of the person who is saved. not of works. will walk in these works. because they are a new creature?

I question you agree with this totally?

You should question my agreement when you add words to Scripture and for all I know, since you don't provide the translation reference, have made this up.

I'm not going to redo this for you. If you'd like to discuss Eph2:10, please paste it from a published translation including the translation name, or translate it yourself and let me know this is what you've done.


again, If your doing this to keep your salvation. or to as you put it co-operate with God to ensure you are saved eternally.

Then you can say you do it for the reasons stated. But I can not buy it.. Because your salvation depends on you doing these things

No need to answer this other than to say 'see above'.

Response interlineated.

 

[studier]

again,

when you put two verses that do not comply or agree with each other. or when they appose each other. like you have done here.

Then you need to make sure you change your view. so the scripture is complete and not against itself.

As they say, 'back at you.'

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Response interlineated.

Kind of lazy. how am I supposed to respond? or do you not want me to respond?

lets try this again.

I don't see how we can be in 100% agreement because what I described is "cooperation" with God which you previously said does not happen in our Salvation Process. Have I misunderstood you?

You did not descrive co-operating. You described being made into a new creature. and this new creature does works because he is made new.

A new person does not co-operate. they start acting out their new nature..

A dog returns to his vomit because he is a dog. A new creature, who was created anew in Christ. does not go back to his vomit like he did before. because his new nature is changed.

Do we agree on why?

Don't know. My guess would be, No, but it's early in our relationship.

I doubt we agree. your still trying to cooperate to earn Gods love. I am just acting out of my new nature.

eph 2: 10. those created in Christ Jesus having been saved completely by grace through faith of the person who is saved. not of works. will walk in these works. because they are a new creature?

I question you agree with this totally?

You should question my agreement when you add words to Scripture and for all I know, since you don't provide the translation reference, have made this up.

Well I did not add to scripture.. or maybe you could show me what word I added? Not just accuse?

I'm not going to redo this for you. If you'd like to discuss Eph2:10, please paste it from a published translation including the translation name, or translate it yourself and let me know this is what you've done.

You do not have to redo it. Just read it and show me where I went wrong in my interpretation of what was said. or is that too hard?

again, If your doing this to keep your salvation. or to as you put it co-operate with God to ensure you are saved eternally.

Then you can say you do it for the reasons stated. But I can not buy it.. Because your salvation depends on you doing these things

No need to answer this other than to say 'see above'.
.

great dodge.

But I have become use to this.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

As they say, 'back at you.'

The verses do agree in my interpretation.

So i do not have to change the meanings to make them agree.

 

[Lamar]

When one claims they must do this or that to maintain salvation. or salvation can be lost based on what a person does or does not do.

then that is exactly what they are saying.

I am amazed that people can not see this basic truth

When someone writes a check as a gift does the cashing of the check imply the person earned the gift?
Is there merit, maintenance or assistance in the need to cash the check?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

When someone writes a check as a gift does the cashing of the check imply the person earned the gift?
Is there merit, maintenance or assistance in the need to cash the check?

so you need to cash a check for God to save you?

God saved me where I stood. He cashed the check on the cross.

If your trying to cash something in.. Your in deep trouble. Jesus is handing it to you. you have to receive it in faith.

 

[PennEd]

When someone writes a check as a gift does the cashing of the check imply the person earned the gift?
Is there merit, maintenance or assistance in the need to cash the check?

It's not about cashing the check. It's about receiving or REJECTING the check.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

The above will be twisted, as I said posts ago when I posted similar.
They have to twist it to meet their doctrine.

Interesting

He is against aboprtion,

But not against God aborting us..

Ironic.. more logic of men..

When believers become detached from the Vine it is because they have have CEASED TO ABIDE in Him. He said:
4 Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. (John 15:3-4)

Bearing fruit is not about EARNING a position through self-effort. We only bear fruit by His help. The fact that the kind of person described in this passage bore "NO FRUIT" shows that they DID NOT CONTINUE to participate in the LIFE of the Vine." If they had they would, have naturally borne fruit. Thus the issue here, is not WORKS but RELATIONSHIP. If we REMAIN in the Vine we will bear fruit but we must continue to participate in the LIFE of the Vine if we are to continue to bear fruit. To me, the one self-evident truth in John 15 is that Jesus does not want us to "perform works superficially" as the Pharisees did. He wants those works to proceed from the life of Christ in us.

At the same time, we must remain faithful to believe in Him and continue in His teaching:
24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning (the gospel) remain in you. IF IT DOES, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.… (1 John 2:24-25)
When men do not remain in Him God is not "aborting" them. The scriptural picture is not of a baby being killed but of an adulterous woman severing her relationship with her husband by an act of violence

The Apostle says we will CONTINUE in the Father and Son so long as we CONTINUE to in the gospel, the message of Salvation. If we turn to some other promise of salvation and deny the gospel or if we deny the Son we will no longer continue in His LIFE.

The Father has set forth CONDITIONS which is not to say we meet these conditions apart from Him. We cannot do this. Faith is not striving but resting.

 

[Lamar]

so you need to cash a check for God to save you?

It's an analogy. In other words, we must accept God on His terms. We must obey God in order to receive His grace. There is no work in properly accepting God's grace.

Claiming God's grace without obeying Him is mocking His will.

And this is what you are doing.

Galatians 6:7
New International Version
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

You are sowing a false gospel. A gospel without obedience.

 

[Lamar]

It's not about cashing the check. It's about receiving or REJECTING the check.

A uncashed check is a worthless check. Just as faith without works is worthless.

James 2:26
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

We may debate what works are needed but not the need for works.

 

[PennEd]

A uncashed check is a worthless check. Just as faith without works is worthless.

James 2:26
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

We may debate what works are needed but not the need for works.

Not true. I can deposit an uncashed check if you want to continue with the analogy.

JESUS, is the check. By receiving Jesus, you have deposited the check.
Maybe cashing the check and spending it wisely would mean I do good works for HIM, NOT to save myself.

You CAN'T cash the check UNTIL you have it! So it's ALL about the receiving.

 

[PennEd]

When believers become detached from the Vine it is because they have have CEASED TO ABIDE in Him. He said:
4 Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. (John 15:3-4)

15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you.

The words translated "takes away" literally means "lifted up".

Those in Him that bear no fruit ARE NOT thrown into the fire. They are removed from their ability to to gain fruit, bring others to the Kingdom, and lose eternal rewards. They are NOT lost.

This is what happens to those that DIDN'T abide in Him. The NEVER saved to start with.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

See the difference?

The first group DID abide in Him. They just didn't bear fruit, and will be regarded as the least in the Kingdom. But they WILL be in the Kingdom.

The second group DID NOT abide in Him, and are consequently lost.

Same story is told in the soil parables.

 

[BillG]

When believers become detached from the Vine it is because they have have CEASED TO ABIDE in Him. He said:
4 Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. (John 15:3-4)

Bearing fruit is not about EARNING a position through self-effort. We only bear fruit by His help. The fact that the kind of person described in this passage bore "NO FRUIT" shows that they DID NOT CONTINUE to participate in the LIFE of the Vine." If they had they would, have naturally borne fruit. Thus the issue here, is not WORKS but RELATIONSHIP. If we REMAIN in the Vine we will bear fruit but we must continue to participate in the LIFE of the Vine if we are to continue to bear fruit. To me, the one self-evident truth in John 15 is that Jesus does not want us to "perform works superficially" as the Pharisees did. He wants those works to proceed from the life of Christ in us.

At the same time, we must remain faithful to believe in Him and continue in His teaching:
24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning (the gospel) remain in you. IF IT DOES, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.… (1 John 2:24-25)
When men do not remain in Him God is not "aborting" them. The scriptural picture is not of a baby being killed but of an adulterous woman severing her relationship with her husband by an act of violence

The Apostle says we will CONTINUE in the Father and Son so long as we CONTINUE to in the gospel, the message of Salvation. If we turn to some other promise of salvation and deny the gospel or if we deny the Son we will no longer continue in His LIFE.

The Father has set forth CONDITIONS which is not to say we meet these conditions apart from Him. We cannot do this. Faith is not striving but resting.

Maybe go back and look at my response to @Everlasting-Grace in your post including me.
What I said has nothing to do with what he has said that you quote in your post.

 

[Chester]

15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you.

The words translated "takes away" literally means "lifted up".

Those in Him that bear no fruit ARE NOT thrown into the fire. They are removed from their ability to to gain fruit, bring others to the Kingdom, and lose eternal rewards. They are NOT lost.

This is what happens to those that DIDN'T abide in Him. The NEVER saved to start with.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

See the difference?

The first group DID abide in Him. They just didn't bear fruit, and will be regarded as the least in the Kingdom. But they WILL be in the Kingdom.

The second group DID NOT abide in Him, and are consequently lost.

Same story is told in the soil parables.

In John 15:6 what then was getting burnt in the fire? It seems to me it is a branch that is getting burnt. And there is no way that you can get a branch unless it was sometime somehow connected to the vine.

 

[PennEd]

In John 15:6 what then was getting burnt in the fire? It seems to me it is a branch that is getting burnt. And there is no way that you can get a branch unless it was sometime somehow connected to the vine.

The text says, those that DIDN'T abide are burned up. It says that those that DID, but produce no fruit, are "lifted up". Not exactly sure what that term means, but it's different than those that are gathered on the ground and tossed into the fire.

Speculatively speaking, because Jesus is human, it could mean all humans, saved and unsaved, are part of the "tree" which is Jesus. But the UNSAVED NEVER abided in Him, and consequently, after rejecting Him, they with away and fall off.

Or, it COULD speculatively mean that they are a part of Satan's family tree.

"You are of your father the Devil". So maybe not too far fetched. But either way, they are not the same as those "lifted Up".

 

[Lamar]

Not true. I can deposit an uncashed check if you want to continue with the analogy.

JESUS, is the check. By receiving Jesus, you have deposited the check.
Maybe cashing the check and spending it wisely would mean I do good works for HIM, NOT to save myself.

You CAN'T cash the check UNTIL you have it! So it's ALL about the receiving.

The question remains.
Does cashing or "depositing" a birthday check imply you have earned it?
Regardless of who is the check or how much is the check, is there a need to properly accept the check?

 

[JimiSurvivor]

so you need to cash a check for God to save you?

God saved me where I stood. He cashed the check on the cross.

If your trying to cash something in.. Your in deep trouble. Jesus is handing it to you. you have to receive it in faith.

This is VERY simple. We ALL will fall away and depart from Christ. We do it every single time we grieve or quench the Spirit.

We do it with our human good and we do it with sin. Evil and sin........The very, very deceptive one is EVIL(human good.)

We lose fellowship(NOT SALVATION)when we grieve or quench the Spirit...Fallen away and departed from Christ.
1 John 1:9 Is the solution for the Believer.

Human good(quenching the Spirit) Wants to "work" for salvation. Any believer who believes we can lose, walk away, forfeit or maintain salvation has FALLEN AWAY. They need to 1 John 1:9 And come back to the SOLID foundation. They are Out of fellowship with the Spirit who SEALED them.

This is VERY simple. We ALL will fall away and depart from Christ. We do it every single time we grieve or quench the Spirit.

We do it with our human good and we do it with sin. Evil and sin........The very, very deceptive one is EVIL(human good.)

We lose fellowship(NOT SALVATION)when we grieve or quench the Spirit...Fallen away and departed from Christ.
1 John 1:9 Is the solution for the Believer.

Human good(quenching the Spirit) Wants to "work" for salvation. Any believer who believes we can lose, walk away, forfeit or maintain salvation has FALLEN AWAY. They need to 1 John 1:9 And come back to the SOLID foundation. They are Out of fellowship with the Spirit who SEALED them.

We ALL will fall away and depart from Christ. We do it every single time we grieve or quench the Spirit.

"Falling away from the faith" is not about committing specific sins. Falling away refers to the act of abandoning or renouncing one's FAITH in Jesus Christ after having once professed it. This is more than a temporary lapse or struggle in faith but a deliberate and conscious decision to turn away from the truth of the Gospel.
This can be demonstrated by the Lexical definition of the word "fall away" which is aphistémi:
"To depart, withdraw, remove, desert, fall away"

Paul tells us that some WILL FALL AWAY. In your paradigm WE ALL fall away every time we sin,
"but the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons (1 Timothy 4:1)
Notice that what many shall FALL AWAY from is The FAITH and that this leads them to follow demons. According to you EVERY Christian falls away EVERY TIME they commits a sin. However, although the Bible says all of us do commit sins from time to time it gives us a remedy and that is confession.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

When believers become detached from the Vine it is because they have have CEASED TO ABIDE in Him. He said:
4 Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. (John 15:3-4)

Bearing fruit is not about EARNING a position through self-effort. We only bear fruit by His help. The fact that the kind of person described in this passage bore "NO FRUIT" shows that they DID NOT CONTINUE to participate in the LIFE of the Vine." If they had they would, have naturally borne fruit. Thus the issue here, is not WORKS but RELATIONSHIP. If we REMAIN in the Vine we will bear fruit but we must continue to participate in the LIFE of the Vine if we are to continue to bear fruit. To me, the one self-evident truth in John 15 is that Jesus does not want us to "perform works superficially" as the Pharisees did. He wants those works to proceed from the life of Christ in us.

At the same time, we must remain faithful to believe in Him and continue in His teaching:
24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning (the gospel) remain in you. IF IT DOES, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.… (1 John 2:24-25)
When men do not remain in Him God is not "aborting" them. The scriptural picture is not of a baby being killed but of an adulterous woman severing her relationship with her husband by an act of violence

The Apostle says we will CONTINUE in the Father and Son so long as we CONTINUE to in the gospel, the message of Salvation. If we turn to some other promise of salvation and deny the gospel or if we deny the Son we will no longer continue in His LIFE.

The Father has set forth CONDITIONS which is not to say we meet these conditions apart from Him. We cannot do this. Faith is not striving but resting.

then our salvation is based on us and our faithfulness, Not God and his faithfulness.

That passage Paul spoke in was him calling people to make sure their faith was real.

we do not come to be poor in spirit. become like the tax collector. so broken we are on our knees not even able to look up and cry out for Gods mercy. and recieve that gift of life based on God and his promise

Only to change our mind and go back and claim we never really believed it.

unless we never really believed it.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It's an analogy.

And it failed

In other words, we must accept God on His terms. We must obey God in order to receive His grace. There is no work in properly accepting God's grace.

No. If we must obey to receive grace. then grace is no longer grace.

grace is freely given. I do not need a check to pay my debt, my debt was already paid. I just have to recieve the forgiveness and grace God is offering.. or reject it. and by unbelief remain condemned.

Claiming God's grace without obeying Him is mocking His will.

Claiming Gods grace by working to earn it is to mock his mercy and grace.

And this is what you are doing.

Galatians 6:7
New International Version
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

You are sowing a false gospel. A gospel without obedience.

No. I am sowing a gospel of grace through faith not works.

Your the one trying to earn Grace my mocking God claiming his work is not sufficient.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The text says, those that DIDN'T abide are burned up. It says that those that DID, but produce no fruit, are "lifted up". Not exactly sure what that term means, but it's different than those that are gathered on the ground and tossed into the fire.

Speculatively speaking, because Jesus is human, it could mean all humans, saved and unsaved, are part of the "tree" which is Jesus. But the UNSAVED NEVER abided in Him, and consequently, after rejecting Him, they with away and fall off.

Or, it COULD speculatively mean that they are a part of Satan's family tree.

"You are of your father the Devil". So maybe not too far fetched. But either way, they are not the same as those "lifted Up".

Lifted up is a term used in vinedressing, if a vine is on the ground, it is chocked and can not produce fruit. so the vinedresser lifts it up and ties it off the ground so it can produce fruit.

the whole passage is about bearing fruit. not about getting saved or losing salvation