Understanding God’s election
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I meant to finish what I started but missed doing so. Again, just supplementing @PaulThomson (PT) responses:
The 'through faith" part of Eph2:8 is relatively simple but again some decisions need to be made. From the same reference Greek Grammar Book:
Διά (dia)
A. Basic Uses (with Genitive and Accusative)
1. With Genitive
a. Agency: by, through
b. Means: through
c. Spatial: through
d. Temporal: through(out), during
2. With Accusative
a. Cause: because of, on account of, for the sake of
b. Spatial (rare): through
The phrase is dia + faith (genitive), so we can see how "through" is being chose as the translation. Also, the spatial chart for prepositions PT provided is an excellent tool to keep at hand.
The problem we can see above is "through" can be used to convey 3 different meanings.
I'm just going to put forth and example of how the translation 'by grace through faith' could be reconsidered. In the Instrumental category of the Dative [] grace we might consider [because of] grace you are (or have been) saved by means of faith not from/as a result of works, [of] God the gift. IOW because God is gracious and applies grace to man's situation, God saved man by the instrumentality of faith and not as a result of works (because man could not do such saving works), [of] God the gift. IOW, we can try these different concepts of classifying this grammar and see how it compares to the rest of Scripture.
There are a couple other considerations here that could help. "faith" in some manuscripts is anarthrous and in some is articular. I'm not checking all the evidence at the moment. The Greek article (the) is used differently than in English so we'd have to decide how it's being used if we conclude it should be there. If we so conclude, then it could open up a few interesting considerations, because at times "the faith" is not man's belief/faith, but is the Gospel. So, just a note.
Also, as I think I saw PT address, there is a verbal construction here that is not too unusual but is not the norm. It is speaking of or including something done/completed in the past. With all that's being said in context, e.g. the made alive, raised and seated together with Christ this also sounds to me like it's not just positional as many if not most interpret it, but more precisely Paul may be speaking of or including the fact that it's God's Salvation Plan (because of His grace and which uses the instrument of faith).
Fun, huh?
The 'through faith" part of Eph2:8 is relatively simple but again some decisions need to be made. From the same reference Greek Grammar Book:
Διά (dia)
A. Basic Uses (with Genitive and Accusative)
1. With Genitive
a. Agency: by, through
b. Means: through
c. Spatial: through
d. Temporal: through(out), during
2. With Accusative
a. Cause: because of, on account of, for the sake of
b. Spatial (rare): through
The phrase is dia + faith (genitive), so we can see how "through" is being chose as the translation. Also, the spatial chart for prepositions PT provided is an excellent tool to keep at hand.
The problem we can see above is "through" can be used to convey 3 different meanings.
I'm just going to put forth and example of how the translation 'by grace through faith' could be reconsidered. In the Instrumental category of the Dative [] grace we might consider [because of] grace you are (or have been) saved by means of faith not from/as a result of works, [of] God the gift. IOW because God is gracious and applies grace to man's situation, God saved man by the instrumentality of faith and not as a result of works (because man could not do such saving works), [of] God the gift. IOW, we can try these different concepts of classifying this grammar and see how it compares to the rest of Scripture.
There are a couple other considerations here that could help. "faith" in some manuscripts is anarthrous and in some is articular. I'm not checking all the evidence at the moment. The Greek article (the) is used differently than in English so we'd have to decide how it's being used if we conclude it should be there. If we so conclude, then it could open up a few interesting considerations, because at times "the faith" is not man's belief/faith, but is the Gospel. So, just a note.
Also, as I think I saw PT address, there is a verbal construction here that is not too unusual but is not the norm. It is speaking of or including something done/completed in the past. With all that's being said in context, e.g. the made alive, raised and seated together with Christ this also sounds to me like it's not just positional as many if not most interpret it, but more precisely Paul may be speaking of or including the fact that it's God's Salvation Plan (because of His grace and which uses the instrument of faith).
Fun, huh?
This belief is based on my own conversion.
I did not have a “on the road to Damascus experience”. I was simply sitting in church listening to a sermon feeling sorry for myself because I did not have the same belief/faith as all those around me. And, I felt like I had sinned so much that I could never be forgiven.
I had absolutely no desire to ask for forgiveness, because I felt it was impossible.
Then I hear the words “There is no sin so vile that it is beyond God's forgiveness, if the Axe-Head floats”.
God used these few words to let me know that I was indeed His! I wept and I am positive that my heart was changed due to his drawing me near, renewing my heart, and giving me faith. I know that these gifts were from God, not from me! Who, other than God himself, could use a sermon from 2 Kings 6:5-7 to change someone forever! That was over 40yrs ago!
In other words, I was given the Ability to approach GOD!
I did not have a “on the road to Damascus experience”. I was simply sitting in church listening to a sermon feeling sorry for myself because I did not have the same belief/faith as all those around me. And, I felt like I had sinned so much that I could never be forgiven.
I had absolutely no desire to ask for forgiveness, because I felt it was impossible.
Then I hear the words “There is no sin so vile that it is beyond God's forgiveness, if the Axe-Head floats”.
God used these few words to let me know that I was indeed His! I wept and I am positive that my heart was changed due to his drawing me near, renewing my heart, and giving me faith. I know that these gifts were from God, not from me! Who, other than God himself, could use a sermon from 2 Kings 6:5-7 to change someone forever! That was over 40yrs ago!
In other words, I was given the Ability to approach GOD!
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Yep but probably not the people who offend them or disagree lol they probably just aren’t elect and chosen and loved by god enough to offer them salvation ….like the chosen ones who it doesn’t matter what they do they’re saved . But those other silly fools and sinners believe you need to repent and believe the gospel and accept Jesus
I believe you are falsely reifying abstract ideas.
Grace is not a material substance. Grace is a state or a mode of behaving, like compassion. peace and honesty. It is not a substance that one pours out on people or deposits in their soul. There are things provided in grace (i.e. graciously) for everyone; things that, if one is willing to receive and use them, make a relationship with God possible. Things like revelation of the created nature of the universe that reveals the existence of a Creator. The gospel message that makes Christ and reconciliation with the Creator possible for whomsoever is willing to believe it. The Holy Spirit who has been poured out on all flesh, and who convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. Our five senses that allow us to read and/or hear the gospel, which, if we choose to use them to seek truth can lead us to faith in Christ.
Grace is the attitude of providing gifts freely for people to accept or reject as they will. By means of God's attitude of freely providing the requisite gifts for all, we are saved through faith, through believing the gifts are for us as members of the "all" for whom God has provided them.
Grace is not a material substance. Grace is a state or a mode of behaving, like compassion. peace and honesty. It is not a substance that one pours out on people or deposits in their soul. There are things provided in grace (i.e. graciously) for everyone; things that, if one is willing to receive and use them, make a relationship with God possible. Things like revelation of the created nature of the universe that reveals the existence of a Creator. The gospel message that makes Christ and reconciliation with the Creator possible for whomsoever is willing to believe it. The Holy Spirit who has been poured out on all flesh, and who convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. Our five senses that allow us to read and/or hear the gospel, which, if we choose to use them to seek truth can lead us to faith in Christ.
Grace is the attitude of providing gifts freely for people to accept or reject as they will. By means of God's attitude of freely providing the requisite gifts for all, we are saved through faith, through believing the gifts are for us as members of the "all" for whom God has provided them.
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Synergists always seem to leave out this part of the definition for some reason 🤔 Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
By grace, the divine influence on the heart, are ye saved through faith…
Our eyes are opened to see Christ, upon seeing we believe-unless you’re a synergists, they heal their own blindness lol
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A very large portion of Ezekiel is devoted to God's promise to return the Jews the promised land from which they were exiled. Physical resurrection has nothing to do with the promised land; for the resurrection takes place on the last day of this age at which time the new heavens and new earth will be created and all the resurrected redeemed will dwell on the new earth. The resurrected righteous will not be dwelling in the land of Israel. You are conveniently ignoring the context of Ezek 36-37 because you don't like the theological implications to what the prophet is saying!
Ezek 36:24-38
24 "'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!
33 "'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. 34 The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. 35 They will say, "This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited." 36 Then the nations around you that remain will know that I the LORD have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I the LORD have spoken, and I will do it.'
37 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Once again I will yield to the plea of the house of Israel and do this for them: I will make their people as numerous as sheep, 38 as numerous as the flocks for offerings at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts. So will the ruined cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the LORD."
NIV
And,
Ezek 37:24-28
24 "'My servant David [Jesus] will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.'"
NIV
Since the bodily resurrection takes place at the END of the AGE and all the saints will be in their new glorified bodies with a perfect, holy, sinless nature, there will be no laws or decrees for any of the saints to follow, since all the saints' hearts will be filled with the joy and love of the Lord. The Law was never made for the righteous; but only for the wicked!
1 Tim 1:8-11
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers — and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
NIV
Since there will be no ungodly persons in the New Order (Rev 21:7; 22:14-15), there will be no need for God's Law; for the Law of Love will govern the thoughts, words and deeds of all the saints.
Moreover, the Great Hope of even the ancient OT saints was not the promise of dwelling in an earthly, natural land that was given to Abraham and the other patriarchs.. Rather the great hope was a better country than the earthly promised land. The patriarchs were looking for a city whose architect and builder is God! Yet, Ezek 36-37 is talking strictly about the Jews returning to their earthly, natural land -- a land that is not a better country or heavenly country! And this better, heavenly country will be "built" by God at the Parousia which is also when the resurrection of the just and unjust takes place.
Heb 11:13-16
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country — a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
NIV
Finally, Ezek 36-37 talks a great deal about how God would give saving knowledge to his OC people -- how they would all KNOW God -- this godly knowledge being a major theme of the New Covenant.
Heb 8:7-12
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
NIV
Therefore, for all these reasons (and even more!) the resurrection spoken of in Ezek 37 cannot be the physical resurrection since this kind of resurrection is not connected to the Promised Land but rather is connected to the New Order -- the New Heavens and New Earth -- the Better Country -- the Heavenly Country. However, spiritual resurrection is connected to this earth; for this is the resurrection all God's people participate in prior to dying. Furthermore, the gift of the Holy Spirit is given in this age -- the same age in which the Promised Land still exists.
Ezek 36:24-38
24 "'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!
33 "'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. 34 The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. 35 They will say, "This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited." 36 Then the nations around you that remain will know that I the LORD have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I the LORD have spoken, and I will do it.'
37 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Once again I will yield to the plea of the house of Israel and do this for them: I will make their people as numerous as sheep, 38 as numerous as the flocks for offerings at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts. So will the ruined cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the LORD."
NIV
And,
Ezek 37:24-28
24 "'My servant David [Jesus] will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.'"
NIV
Since the bodily resurrection takes place at the END of the AGE and all the saints will be in their new glorified bodies with a perfect, holy, sinless nature, there will be no laws or decrees for any of the saints to follow, since all the saints' hearts will be filled with the joy and love of the Lord. The Law was never made for the righteous; but only for the wicked!
1 Tim 1:8-11
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers — and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
NIV
Since there will be no ungodly persons in the New Order (Rev 21:7; 22:14-15), there will be no need for God's Law; for the Law of Love will govern the thoughts, words and deeds of all the saints.
Moreover, the Great Hope of even the ancient OT saints was not the promise of dwelling in an earthly, natural land that was given to Abraham and the other patriarchs.. Rather the great hope was a better country than the earthly promised land. The patriarchs were looking for a city whose architect and builder is God! Yet, Ezek 36-37 is talking strictly about the Jews returning to their earthly, natural land -- a land that is not a better country or heavenly country! And this better, heavenly country will be "built" by God at the Parousia which is also when the resurrection of the just and unjust takes place.
Heb 11:13-16
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country — a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
NIV
Finally, Ezek 36-37 talks a great deal about how God would give saving knowledge to his OC people -- how they would all KNOW God -- this godly knowledge being a major theme of the New Covenant.
Heb 8:7-12
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
NIV
Therefore, for all these reasons (and even more!) the resurrection spoken of in Ezek 37 cannot be the physical resurrection since this kind of resurrection is not connected to the Promised Land but rather is connected to the New Order -- the New Heavens and New Earth -- the Better Country -- the Heavenly Country. However, spiritual resurrection is connected to this earth; for this is the resurrection all God's people participate in prior to dying. Furthermore, the gift of the Holy Spirit is given in this age -- the same age in which the Promised Land still exists.
BINGO! You just won the grand prize! 
How unloving of a God to create gazillions of people of whom Christ will say:
Matt 7:23
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
NIV
I cannot imagine hearing more terrifying words than this! Jesus NEVER EVER knew the people spoken of in the above text; yet, he created them anyway. Would not such people (like Judas) have been infinitely better off if God had not created them!? After all, everyone's life on this earth is likened to mere vapor -- here one moment, gone the next. Yet, eternity is forever. There are no moments that come and go.
And by the way, welcome to the thread!
How unloving of a God to create gazillions of people of whom Christ will say:Matt 7:23
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
NIV
I cannot imagine hearing more terrifying words than this! Jesus NEVER EVER knew the people spoken of in the above text; yet, he created them anyway. Would not such people (like Judas) have been infinitely better off if God had not created them!? After all, everyone's life on this earth is likened to mere vapor -- here one moment, gone the next. Yet, eternity is forever. There are no moments that come and go.
And by the way, welcome to the thread!