Understanding God’s election
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I get it now, these comments finally opened my eyes to the reason this conversation can go on and on without any kind of understanding or common ground between each other ever being reached. One side is diving deeper into the truths of Gods, debating in good faith and trying to present their side as plainly as they can using scripture anytime asked, "where do you get that from".
The other side does not share the same goal, they have one mission and one mission alone. I did think it was taking credit for some part of their own salvation, to reinforce in their minds that they have some kind of control and responsibility for being saved. I was wrong I think. After reading these two comment it became clear to me, that's not their ultimate goal, their ultimate goal is to attack and destroy any and everything John Calvin. They HATE him do much it's debilitating, they hate him more than democrats hate Trump.
They are so far from God, truth, and His power is foreign to them that they can not possible understand what he means and is talking about that they make their whole salvation about destroying anything they even perceive to be Calvin adjacent. They're not working "for God", they're working "against Calvin". It makes so much more sense in this context. I knew the CDSC ran wild on here, but I never put it together that it's there WHOLE SHOW, God can go sit down with His glory in the back, they have some Calvinist (only in their deluded minds thought) to go destroy. It's just sad.
The other side does not share the same goal, they have one mission and one mission alone. I did think it was taking credit for some part of their own salvation, to reinforce in their minds that they have some kind of control and responsibility for being saved. I was wrong I think. After reading these two comment it became clear to me, that's not their ultimate goal, their ultimate goal is to attack and destroy any and everything John Calvin. They HATE him do much it's debilitating, they hate him more than democrats hate Trump.
They are so far from God, truth, and His power is foreign to them that they can not possible understand what he means and is talking about that they make their whole salvation about destroying anything they even perceive to be Calvin adjacent. They're not working "for God", they're working "against Calvin". It makes so much more sense in this context. I knew the CDSC ran wild on here, but I never put it together that it's there WHOLE SHOW, God can go sit down with His glory in the back, they have some Calvinist (only in their deluded minds thought) to go destroy. It's just sad.
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BINGO! You just won the grand prize! 
How unloving of a God to create gazillions of people of whom Christ will say:
Matt 7:2323 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' NIV
I cannot imagine hearing more terrifying words than this! Jesus NEVER EVER knew the people spoken of in the above text; yet, he created them anyway. Would not such people (like Judas) have been infinitely better off if God had not created them!? After all, everyone's life on this earth is likened to mere vapor -- here one moment, gone the next. Yet, eternity is forever. There are no moments that come and go.
And by the way, welcome to the thread!
How unloving of a God to create gazillions of people of whom Christ will say:Matt 7:2323 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' NIV
I cannot imagine hearing more terrifying words than this! Jesus NEVER EVER knew the people spoken of in the above text; yet, he created them anyway. Would not such people (like Judas) have been infinitely better off if God had not created them!? After all, everyone's life on this earth is likened to mere vapor -- here one moment, gone the next. Yet, eternity is forever. There are no moments that come and go.
And by the way, welcome to the thread!
24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about Him, but woe to that man by whom He is
betrayed. It would be better for him if he had not been born.” 25Then Judas, who would betray
Him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?” Jesus answered, “You have said it yourself.” from Matthew 26
Not at all. Here is my doctrine regarding heresy:
The kerygma/GRFS should be every Christian’s creed, and only belief in this crucial truth should be viewed as a test for orthodoxy or heresy. As Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Conversely, judgments concerning a person’s spiritual orientation or ultimate destiny should not be made on the basis of didachaic or secondary doctrines. (If any judgment is made, it should begin with a self-examination per MT 7:1&5, 2CR 13:5-8).
A major reason many Christians throughout history have not manifested the love and unity of God’s Spirit (EPH 4:3) as well as they should is because of failure to realize this truth. If they did, it would free them to speak honestly and fellowship without becoming unduly upset about relatively minor issues. They would receive God’s blessing as peacemakers, who draw inclusive circles around people based on the kerygma rather than denominational lines between them due to didachaic differences. Jesus prayed for spiritual unity (cf. JN 17:20-23, “May they be one…”).
The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
The kerygma/GRFS should be every Christian’s creed, and only belief in this crucial truth should be viewed as a test for orthodoxy or heresy. As Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Conversely, judgments concerning a person’s spiritual orientation or ultimate destiny should not be made on the basis of didachaic or secondary doctrines. (If any judgment is made, it should begin with a self-examination per MT 7:1&5, 2CR 13:5-8).
A major reason many Christians throughout history have not manifested the love and unity of God’s Spirit (EPH 4:3) as well as they should is because of failure to realize this truth. If they did, it would free them to speak honestly and fellowship without becoming unduly upset about relatively minor issues. They would receive God’s blessing as peacemakers, who draw inclusive circles around people based on the kerygma rather than denominational lines between them due to didachaic differences. Jesus prayed for spiritual unity (cf. JN 17:20-23, “May they be one…”).
The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
- There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
- Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
- Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
- Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
- Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
It is worse than that. The free willers deny pretty much everything said of the natural man in ascribing
to him characteristics and abilities possessed only by the spiritual man. Some have no idea what is even
meant to put the natural man beside the spiritual. The terms mean nothing to them. Whole swaths of the
Bible are overlooked, ignored, and outright denied regularly. They deny slavery to sin. They deny that
a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit. They deny that the gospel message is foolishness to those
who can neither receive not comprehend the spiritual things of God. They claim that by the sheer force
of their will -with no help from God because that would be unfair after all!- the natural man can choose,
can just decide, to believe what makes zero sense to him. They reduce belief to making a decision. And
it gets worse than that, even! There has been floated the claim that believing your watch tells the right
time of day is equivalent to believing in God and Jesus Christ for the salvation of your soul! I mean, does
anyone else hear Twilight Zone music??? It goes well beyond ridiculous what gets said...
Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7:21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:18
to him characteristics and abilities possessed only by the spiritual man. Some have no idea what is even
meant to put the natural man beside the spiritual. The terms mean nothing to them. Whole swaths of the
Bible are overlooked, ignored, and outright denied regularly. They deny slavery to sin. They deny that
a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit. They deny that the gospel message is foolishness to those
who can neither receive not comprehend the spiritual things of God. They claim that by the sheer force
of their will -with no help from God because that would be unfair after all!- the natural man can choose,
can just decide, to believe what makes zero sense to him. They reduce belief to making a decision. And
it gets worse than that, even! There has been floated the claim that believing your watch tells the right
time of day is equivalent to believing in God and Jesus Christ for the salvation of your soul! I mean, does
anyone else hear Twilight Zone music??? It goes well beyond ridiculous what gets said...
Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7:21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:18
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Well, a few here claim everyone hears even though Jesus said otherwise.
The universalism angle has been pointed out to them before, also, but they don't really address it.
Since everyone who hears is raised to new life, and His sheep hear... but, oy, par for the course here.
Many are the times, too, when I have said hearing must encompass comprehension.
Naw, they don't like that. To them, the natural man can choose to believe
foolishness, and no amount of sense is going to change their mind on that.
The universalism angle has been pointed out to them before, also, but they don't really address it.
Since everyone who hears is raised to new life, and His sheep hear... but, oy, par for the course here.
Many are the times, too, when I have said hearing must encompass comprehension.
Naw, they don't like that. To them, the natural man can choose to believe
foolishness, and no amount of sense is going to change their mind on that.
It is worse than that. The free willers deny pretty much everything said of the natural man in ascribing
to him characteristics and abilities possessed only by the spiritual man. Some have no idea what is even
meant to put the natural man beside the spiritual. The terms mean nothing to them. Whole swaths of the
Bible are overlooked, ignored, and outright denied regularly. They deny slavery to sin. They deny that
a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit. They deny that the gospel message is foolishness to those
who can neither receive not comprehend the spiritual things of God. They claim that by the sheer force
of their will -with no help from God because that would be unfair after all!- the natural man can choose,
can just decide, to believe what makes zero sense to him. They reduce belief to making a decision. And
it gets worse than that, even! There has been floated the claim that believing your watch tells the right
time of day is equivalent to believing in God and Jesus Christ for the salvation of your soul! I mean, does
anyone else hear Twilight Zone music??? It goes well beyond ridiculous what gets said...
Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7:21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:18
to him characteristics and abilities possessed only by the spiritual man. Some have no idea what is even
meant to put the natural man beside the spiritual. The terms mean nothing to them. Whole swaths of the
Bible are overlooked, ignored, and outright denied regularly. They deny slavery to sin. They deny that
a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit. They deny that the gospel message is foolishness to those
who can neither receive not comprehend the spiritual things of God. They claim that by the sheer force
of their will -with no help from God because that would be unfair after all!- the natural man can choose,
can just decide, to believe what makes zero sense to him. They reduce belief to making a decision. And
it gets worse than that, even! There has been floated the claim that believing your watch tells the right
time of day is equivalent to believing in God and Jesus Christ for the salvation of your soul! I mean, does
anyone else hear Twilight Zone music??? It goes well beyond ridiculous what gets said...
Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7:21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:18
choose, can just decide, to believe what makes zero sense to him. They reduce belief to making a decision."
Not sure if your "they" includes me, but just in case it does, I will clarify that rather than reducing belief to a decision, I glorify God for loving all of humanity and gracing every sinner with sufficient volition so they may seek salvation, find the Gospel, choose to follow Christ and so be saved.
Well, in the Bible I read, God lets us know that He knows nobody seeks Him.
That is the estate of the fallen man. The natural man can nether receive
nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. This is explicitly stated.
What else is explicitly stated? There are none good. The flesh profits nothing.
A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Free willers upend all that.
That is the estate of the fallen man. The natural man can nether receive
nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. This is explicitly stated.
What else is explicitly stated? There are none good. The flesh profits nothing.
A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Free willers upend all that.
John 3:19-20 and from Psalm 10:4 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come
into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. The wicked reviles the Lord
To the free willer, the above verses are not true. To the free willer, the person defined as darkness itself can
simply choose to come into and believe the Light even though he can neither receive nor comprehend it.
Psalm 14:1-3; Job 15:16 ~ The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt; their acts are vile. There is no one who does good. The LORD looks down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if any understand, if any seek God. All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Man is vile and corrupt.
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Mr. PT yesterday (you know...our resident Gr. scholar) balked at my interpretation of Jn 11:26 and accused me of spiritualizing the text. Here's how vv. 25-26 read:
John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
NIV
Verse 25 is most certainly speaking of the bodily resurrection. We can know this in two ways: A) the future tense of the verb "will live". This plainly speaks to a future event. And B) the death spoken of in the last part of the verse is physical. Jesus is comparing apples to apples. Believers will live [again] physically in the age to come even though in this age they physically die.
Verse 26 is structured the same way; yet notice the difference in verb tenses! "Whoever lives and believes" (PRESENT tense). And whoever does these things presently can be assured that they "will never die" (future tense). But the death spoken of here cannot possibly mean physical death, since all believers eventually die physically (save for the two biblical exceptions of Enoch and Elijah); therefore the death spoken of here can only be referring to the Second [eternal] Death (Rev 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8). Jesus once again is comparing apples with apples. Whoever possesses spiritual life in this present age will never experience spiritual, eternal death in the age to come!
And the third piece of evidence that this is the correct interpretation can be seen in the faith that is mentioned in this latter verse. PT maintained that v.26 is also talking about the physical resurrection; but this makes no sense whatsoever given the biblical definition of "faith". Mr. PT forgets that faith eventually gives way to SIGHT in the New Order. Who needs to believe what will be right before their very eyes and ears -- and indeed all their senses!? When all men stand before God, will they not have empirical proof of his existence?
Heb 11:1
11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
NIV
Therefore, the fact that Jesus links "living" [now] with "believing" [now] tells us immediately that he's talking about spiritual life and faith in this age! Faith is most certainly necessary in this age but not in the next one! In the age to come, no saint will any longer be hoping for anything, nor will there will be any uncertainity or doubt about God, his holy character or his Truth. Faith fades into the background because it will be replaced by Sight! And the fact that Jesus puts life before belief is highly significant and harmonizes with many other scriptures, including the NC promises in Ezek 36-37. Death must retreat from the Light of Life before the Darkness can comprehend it and believe the Gospel.
John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
NIV
Verse 25 is most certainly speaking of the bodily resurrection. We can know this in two ways: A) the future tense of the verb "will live". This plainly speaks to a future event. And B) the death spoken of in the last part of the verse is physical. Jesus is comparing apples to apples. Believers will live [again] physically in the age to come even though in this age they physically die.
Verse 26 is structured the same way; yet notice the difference in verb tenses! "Whoever lives and believes" (PRESENT tense). And whoever does these things presently can be assured that they "will never die" (future tense). But the death spoken of here cannot possibly mean physical death, since all believers eventually die physically (save for the two biblical exceptions of Enoch and Elijah); therefore the death spoken of here can only be referring to the Second [eternal] Death (Rev 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8). Jesus once again is comparing apples with apples. Whoever possesses spiritual life in this present age will never experience spiritual, eternal death in the age to come!
And the third piece of evidence that this is the correct interpretation can be seen in the faith that is mentioned in this latter verse. PT maintained that v.26 is also talking about the physical resurrection; but this makes no sense whatsoever given the biblical definition of "faith". Mr. PT forgets that faith eventually gives way to SIGHT in the New Order. Who needs to believe what will be right before their very eyes and ears -- and indeed all their senses!? When all men stand before God, will they not have empirical proof of his existence?
Heb 11:1
11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
NIV
Therefore, the fact that Jesus links "living" [now] with "believing" [now] tells us immediately that he's talking about spiritual life and faith in this age! Faith is most certainly necessary in this age but not in the next one! In the age to come, no saint will any longer be hoping for anything, nor will there will be any uncertainity or doubt about God, his holy character or his Truth. Faith fades into the background because it will be replaced by Sight! And the fact that Jesus puts life before belief is highly significant and harmonizes with many other scriptures, including the NC promises in Ezek 36-37. Death must retreat from the Light of Life before the Darkness can comprehend it and believe the Gospel.
Yes, I know what you believe, and all I ask is that you save and quote what I just posted
whenever you cite what "we" believe in order not to debate a straw man. Again,
Free willers glorify God for loving all of humanity and gracing every sinner with sufficient volition
so they may seek salvation, find the Gospel, choose to follow Christ and so be saved.
Thanks.
whenever you cite what "we" believe in order not to debate a straw man. Again,
Free willers glorify God for loving all of humanity and gracing every sinner with sufficient volition
so they may seek salvation, find the Gospel, choose to follow Christ and so be saved.
Thanks.
They give themselves credit for choosing to believe.
Generally speaking, they make no distinction between the spiritual man who is freed to believe, and the natural man who
is in bondage to sin, captive to the will of the devil, and suppressing the truth in unrighteousness as a lover of darkness.
That guy who can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God and hears the gospel as foolishness.
Generally speaking, they make no distinction between the spiritual man who is freed to believe, and the natural man who
is in bondage to sin, captive to the will of the devil, and suppressing the truth in unrighteousness as a lover of darkness.
That guy who can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God and hears the gospel as foolishness.
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Circumcision of the heart is a real thing too. Given the response I got asking if
it was magic, I would say not all believe the spiritual aspects of salvation at all.
The person who has not personally experienced God is the one who will claim God
does not reveal Himself differently from one person to the next or it would be unfair.
Perhaps that is how they can reduce coming to believe to a mental exercise in morality.
And call personal experience "gnosis" as if it were not God fulfilling His promise and drawing us with lovingkindness.
it was magic, I would say not all believe the spiritual aspects of salvation at all.
The person who has not personally experienced God is the one who will claim God
does not reveal Himself differently from one person to the next or it would be unfair.
Perhaps that is how they can reduce coming to believe to a mental exercise in morality.
And call personal experience "gnosis" as if it were not God fulfilling His promise and drawing us with lovingkindness.
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I know!
I wanted to post this panel to you...
From 1 Peter 1:3-5 ~ The elect are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood. By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power for the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
I wanted to post this panel to you...
From 1 Peter 1:3-5 ~ The elect are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood. By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power for the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
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