Is having faith/belief obeying?
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So, you disagree with all the work done from Scripture in posts #78 and #79?
No. Actually, I'm saying (just as #78 & 79 say and I have said many times) that men are commanded to believe so, belief is obedience - faith-obedience - then we work and live out that faith-obedience in the good works our Father prepared beforehand for us to walk in so the same faith-obedience becomes faith-obedience-good works with God working in us providing His capacity in His Children.
No. Actually, I'm saying (just as #78 & 79 say and I have said many times) that men are commanded to believe so, belief is obedience - faith-obedience - then we work and live out that faith-obedience in the good works our Father prepared beforehand for us to walk in so the same faith-obedience becomes faith-obedience-good works with God working in us providing His capacity in His Children.
Consider this:
“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”
1 John 3:23 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/1jn.3.23.KJV
Belief is commanded. Therefore, one who believes is obedient at the point in time that they come to believe.
Now apply this to John 3:36
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
John 3:36 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.3.36.ESV
Someone who believes is already obedient, so the latter part of the verse doesn’t apply to them.
Someone who does not obey the Son is someone who does not believe in him.
It’s not possible to believe and then not obey. Belief is obedience.
I think the King James may say it better.
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
John 3:36 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.3.36.KJV
“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”
1 John 3:23 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/1jn.3.23.KJV
Belief is commanded. Therefore, one who believes is obedient at the point in time that they come to believe.
Now apply this to John 3:36
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
John 3:36 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.3.36.ESV
Someone who believes is already obedient, so the latter part of the verse doesn’t apply to them.
Someone who does not obey the Son is someone who does not believe in him.
It’s not possible to believe and then not obey. Belief is obedience.
I think the King James may say it better.
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
John 3:36 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.3.36.KJV
I actually wish you'd stop asking the last question. God is always the initiator and thereby the enabler, from creation onward.
I see Scripture as very clear that fallen man retains the ability to choose and to believe. I think it's an absurdity both experientially and from Scripture, to claim otherwise (beyond a certain degree). Some men were living in Faith from the Garden on. When Messiah was on the earth, some knowing Moses were living in faith as they knew it and were waiting for Him. As Jesus said, Moses wrote about Him. Through signs and the teaching of God some believed Jesus was YHWH's Messiah.
So, men created in God's likeness had and maintained the ability to believe, and God gave them the content to believe and the signs only Messiah could do which proved Jesus was sent by God as He proclaimed and as God commanded Him to proclaim.
This is how GJohn is written around 7 signs so men can believe Jesus is the Christ the Son of God. And as Jesus said, there would be an 8th sign which was the resurrection - tear down the Temple - His body - and He'd rebuild it in 3 days.
This was the message for Israel and then Israel and God-fearing Gentiles in Acts who had some level of understanding and belief from associating with the synagogues in the diaspora.
Re: the faith-obedience issue, this parallelism is in the OC and in the NC. It's we who have worked so hard to remove it and to isolate and oversimplify faith and other words like hearing which include understanding, believing and doing. But in one sense it doesn't really matter what we do with His Word because we cannot ultimately change Gods Word. The fact is that God commands men to believe, so even if they do not know this and come to belief not knowing this, they have simply unknowingly obeyed His command when they believe. Faith is still Faith-Obedience. Who's enabled them to believe? God has through making Himself and His Son known. He's provided the mentality and capacity in creating us and then the revelatory content to believe apart from which men would have no way of knowing or believing.
Today it's not much different. Men who don't reject (and even some who do for a time) God's existence and certain facts about Him per Rom1 can choose to accept what God's Word says about Jesus the Christ from His Word, from His Spirit's work in the earth, and from Christians proclaiming Him and living for Him, which is stated in Scriptures that speak of men like Paul who were persuading men to believe from the Scriptures. The same continues to this day.
FWIW, I don't deny that God may do more for some men, but I don't see it as the norm. And, in my experience, some of the continually weakest Christians I've met were those who had some "miracle" take place in their lives and they seemed to always be seeking the next one. Obviously, my experience is limited to my experience. But, if there were any I really wondered about their Salvation, it was typically such people. They simply did not seem to grow at all and that in itself is disobedience that is the precursor to falling away in Heb6.
I know you think differently, but you asked.
I see Scripture as very clear that fallen man retains the ability to choose and to believe. I think it's an absurdity both experientially and from Scripture, to claim otherwise (beyond a certain degree). Some men were living in Faith from the Garden on. When Messiah was on the earth, some knowing Moses were living in faith as they knew it and were waiting for Him. As Jesus said, Moses wrote about Him. Through signs and the teaching of God some believed Jesus was YHWH's Messiah.
So, men created in God's likeness had and maintained the ability to believe, and God gave them the content to believe and the signs only Messiah could do which proved Jesus was sent by God as He proclaimed and as God commanded Him to proclaim.
This is how GJohn is written around 7 signs so men can believe Jesus is the Christ the Son of God. And as Jesus said, there would be an 8th sign which was the resurrection - tear down the Temple - His body - and He'd rebuild it in 3 days.
This was the message for Israel and then Israel and God-fearing Gentiles in Acts who had some level of understanding and belief from associating with the synagogues in the diaspora.
Re: the faith-obedience issue, this parallelism is in the OC and in the NC. It's we who have worked so hard to remove it and to isolate and oversimplify faith and other words like hearing which include understanding, believing and doing. But in one sense it doesn't really matter what we do with His Word because we cannot ultimately change Gods Word. The fact is that God commands men to believe, so even if they do not know this and come to belief not knowing this, they have simply unknowingly obeyed His command when they believe. Faith is still Faith-Obedience. Who's enabled them to believe? God has through making Himself and His Son known. He's provided the mentality and capacity in creating us and then the revelatory content to believe apart from which men would have no way of knowing or believing.
Today it's not much different. Men who don't reject (and even some who do for a time) God's existence and certain facts about Him per Rom1 can choose to accept what God's Word says about Jesus the Christ from His Word, from His Spirit's work in the earth, and from Christians proclaiming Him and living for Him, which is stated in Scriptures that speak of men like Paul who were persuading men to believe from the Scriptures. The same continues to this day.
FWIW, I don't deny that God may do more for some men, but I don't see it as the norm. And, in my experience, some of the continually weakest Christians I've met were those who had some "miracle" take place in their lives and they seemed to always be seeking the next one. Obviously, my experience is limited to my experience. But, if there were any I really wondered about their Salvation, it was typically such people. They simply did not seem to grow at all and that in itself is disobedience that is the precursor to falling away in Heb6.
I know you think differently, but you asked.
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I said faith applied is our obedience not faith-obedience, that's a tautology.
Be not hearers of the word but doers. Our faith comes from the word, when applied we have obeyed. It's the whole point of James epistle. You can't be saved by grace through faith if all you do is acknowledge you have faith but never utilise it. Resting in God's word (faith) and trusting Him to do what He promised (faith applied) is how we overcome.
Be not hearers of the word but doers. Our faith comes from the word, when applied we have obeyed. It's the whole point of James epistle. You can't be saved by grace through faith if all you do is acknowledge you have faith but never utilise it. Resting in God's word (faith) and trusting Him to do what He promised (faith applied) is how we overcome.
Because not everyone applies what they have. There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Rom.8:1) but how many Christians walk around with a guilt complex? I could list hundreds of examples of the disparity between what we say and what we do.
Seeing that disparity is our wake up call to grow in the faith.
Seeing that disparity is our wake up call to grow in the faith.
Traditions in upbringing trumping God's Word. Quite amazing actually.
Do you notice how many are rejecting what you posted in #78 and #79? without really discussing what the Text actually says? The points made from Rom10, Heb3 and John3 are right there in the Text. I've not seen one disagreeing objective discussion about the language in the Text other than some about not believing vs. not obeying in John3, and maybe one that IMO does not maintain consistency.
In my experience these threads rarely get past theological traditions and more deeply into the Text.
Do you notice how many are rejecting what you posted in #78 and #79? without really discussing what the Text actually says? The points made from Rom10, Heb3 and John3 are right there in the Text. I've not seen one disagreeing objective discussion about the language in the Text other than some about not believing vs. not obeying in John3, and maybe one that IMO does not maintain consistency.
In my experience these threads rarely get past theological traditions and more deeply into the Text.
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OK, please explain how connecting these 2 words is a tautology. Or confirm that you mean obedience and works is the tautology. Better, replace works with good works that James is obviously taking about.
I said faith-obedience because we're commanded to believe, so when we believe we've obeyed. So, if you see this as tautology, then I think we see it the same way and I wish we could drop one word while always knowing the other is attached. But most here cannot do this.
We're yet to get into works so going to James is premature and even then, I'm not sure I'd agree with you, especially when we attach obedience to works instead of good works because dead works can be done in obedience apart from faith.
Please clarify beyond your second paragraph.
I said faith-obedience because we're commanded to believe, so when we believe we've obeyed. So, if you see this as tautology, then I think we see it the same way and I wish we could drop one word while always knowing the other is attached. But most here cannot do this.
We're yet to get into works so going to James is premature and even then, I'm not sure I'd agree with you, especially when we attach obedience to works instead of good works because dead works can be done in obedience apart from faith.
Please clarify beyond your second paragraph.
Bullseye, JBTN.
Not often I see the commandments quoted.
If you have studied the New Testament for years; you will eventually discover, 'faith and love'.
Which is what the two commandments tell us.
For some unknown reason people cannot see this.
Obviously, an emulation of Jesus is divine love to the max.
What else could it be?
Not often I see the commandments quoted.
If you have studied the New Testament for years; you will eventually discover, 'faith and love'.
Which is what the two commandments tell us.
For some unknown reason people cannot see this.
Obviously, an emulation of Jesus is divine love to the max.
What else could it be?
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