Is having faith/belief obeying?

mailmandan · Monday at 7:57 PM

Faith is the root of salvation and obedience which followed in Hebrews 11 is the fruit. It was by or out of faith that obedience was produced by Noah, Abraham and others in Hebrews 11 yet the obedience/works that were produced were not the very essence of faith but the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of their faith.

mailmandan · Monday at 8:00 PM

GWH said:

Yes, saving belief continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

mailmandan · Monday at 8:02 PM

studier said:

Changing our mind and choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves. Not to be confused with multuple acts of obedience/works which follow.

Soyeong · Monday at 8:30 PM

The way to believe in God is by directing our lives towards being in His likeness through being a doer of His character traits. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16) and by testifying about God's goodness we are also expressing to belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him. Likewise, the way to believe that God is a doer of justice is by being a doer of justice in obedience to Him, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. This is exactly the same as the way to believe in the Son because the Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law.

This is why Bible frequently connects our faith with our obedience, such as in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In James 2:18, he said that he would show his faith by his works. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Romans 1:5, we have received grade in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In John 3:36, it equates believing in Jesus with obeying him. In Psalms 119:30, he chose the way of faith by setting God's law before him. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is of someone doing works. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience is referred to as breaking faith. In Hebrews 3:18-19, it equates disobedience with unbelief. And so forth.

Likewise, the reason why there are many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by believing in Jesus and many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by obeying God's law is because God's law is His instructions for how to believe in Jesus, or in other words, embodying God's word is the way to believe in God's word made flesh.

GWH · Monday at 9:30 PM

Kroogz said:

At the moment of repentance/acceptance, God’s Holy Spirit (HS) enters believers’ spiritual hearts (RV 3:20), uniting them with God as heavenly Father (RM 8:9) and identifying them with Christ’s worldwide/catholic body or church (CL 1:18). As noted, Paul refers to the comparable moment for Abraham as spiritual circumcision. This manifold event is also called spiritual birth or baptism (1CR 12:13).

Instead of commanding water baptism for salvation, Paul said in one place (RM 10:9-10) that a convert should confess “with your mouth” in order to be saved, even though elsewhere (EPH 2:8-9) he taught that one is saved by faith. Both outward confession and water baptism may be seen as works manifesting love for God that every new Believer will want to (but we cannot say “must”) perform as soon as possible following his/her decision to have saving faith (cf. MT 3:13-15, ACTS 2:38).

The relationship between Believers/Christians and God may be viewed as having three stages. The first stage is the moment of conversion or repentance (ACTS 20:21), when a person “plugs in” to the power of God’s HS by accepting Christ Jesus as Lord. Because a person’s commitment to Christ is in accordance with God’s perfect will and the response of yielding to His calling (1TM 2:3-4), the moment of spiritual baptism fulfills the command of Ephesians 5:18 to be filled (cooperate fully) with the Spirit. For Christians, this stage occurred in the past historically and grammatically; we were saved when we repented and accepted Christ. It should be noted that the indwelling of the HS does not obviate the need for faith, which is the way God makes or provides for keeping believers standing firm (1CR 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, 2CR 1:20-24).

GWH · Monday at 9:38 PM

GWH said:

At the moment of repentance/acceptance, God’s Holy Spirit (HS) enters believers’ spiritual hearts (RV 3:20), uniting them with God as heavenly Father (RM 8:9) and identifying them with Christ’s worldwide/catholic body or church (CL 1:18). As noted, Paul refers to the comparable moment for Abraham as spiritual circumcision. This manifold event is also called spiritual birth or baptism (1CR 12:13).

Instead of commanding water baptism for salvation, Paul said in one place (RM 10:9-10) that a convert should confess “with your mouth” in order to be saved, even though elsewhere (EPH 2:8-9) he taught that one is saved by faith. Both outward confession and water baptism may be seen as works manifesting love for God that every new Believer will want to (but we cannot say “must”) perform as soon as possible following his/her decision to have saving faith (cf. MT 3:13-15, ACTS 2:38).

Although perfection is not achieved in this life, the necessity of learning the didache in order to strive for perfection indicates the need for perseverance or to keep on learning and growing spiritually until we die physically (PHP 3:12-14). Thus, although learning any specific part of the didache is not GRFS, a person who does not “hunger and thirst for righteousness” (MT 5:6) or want to learn “every word that comes from the mouth of God” (MT 4:4) fails the self-examination Paul commanded and Jesus implied (mentioned previously).

The relationship between Believers/Christians and God may be viewed as having three stages. The first stage is the moment of conversion or repentance (ACTS 20:21), when a person “plugs in” to the power of God’s HS by accepting Christ Jesus as Lord. Because a person’s commitment to Christ is in accordance with God’s perfect will and the response of yielding to His calling (1TM 2:3-4), the moment of spiritual baptism fulfills the command of Ephesians 5:18 to be filled (cooperate fully) with the Spirit. For Christians, this stage occurred in the past historically and grammatically; we were saved when we repented and accepted Christ. It should be noted that the indwelling of the HS does not obviate the need for faith, which is the way God makes or provides for keeping believers standing firm (1CR 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, 2CR 1:20-24).

Soyeong · Monday at 9:39 PM

Kroogz said:

The goal of obeying God's law has absolutely nothing to do with trying to do enough works to get saved.

studier · Tuesday at 7:29 AM

Believer08 said:

This is the first time I've used the winner emoji.

Thanks Lenny & @Believer08.

We spend so much time haggling over things like this, that we miss one of the greatest keys to interpreting the Text and to our relationship with God. 'Obedience' is key and unlocks what underlies many words and phrases in the Bible.

Also, how does one truly believe in God without obeying Him? How does one believe in the Christ (YHWH's Anointed, YWHW's King, the Great High Priest according to Melchizedek (King-Priest), the Prophet greater than Moses) without obeying Him?

With Mr. Smith's article in hand, then look at just who Jesus said our Father is looking for on this earth:

NKJ John 4:21-26 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." 25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming " (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things." 26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

The word being translated as "worship" is proskuneō: Word repetition in the Bible is used to make something emphatic. I know of no other time in our Text that Jesus is recorded making something as emphatic as He does here. Here's what the word means. The transliteration and highlighting are mine:

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)

[BDAG] προσκυνέω (proskuneō)

• προσκυνέω (κυνέω ‘to kiss’) impf. προσεκύνουν; fut. προσκυνήσω; 1 aor. προσεκύνησα (trag., Hdt.+. Freq. used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before persons and kissing their feet or the hem of their garment, the ground, etc.; the Persians did this in the presence of their deified king, and the Greeks before a divinity or someth. holy.) to express in attitude or gesture one’s complete dependence on or submission to a high authority figure, (fall down and) worship, do obeisance to, prostrate oneself before, do reverence to, welcome respectfully,

Time to wake up. It's all about obeying our Father and our Lord Jesus the Christ. Oversimplifying faith in God and in His Gospel of the Lord King of the heavens and the earth and distancing it in any way from obedience to God is an absolute and very tragic farce.

studier · Tuesday at 7:36 AM

Kroogz said:

Start by reading #78, #79, #88. When you understand Biblical Faith, then we can see if you understand Biblical Salvation. Then we can proceed from there.

studier · Tuesday at 7:39 AM

mailmandan said:

Obedience is the fruit? How about works?

mailmandan · Tuesday at 7:44 AM

CS1 said:

Amen! The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in/have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. Now although this belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful -- Matthew 13:23) the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief.

Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I basically defined faith "as" obedience and any act of obedience accomplished I would simply call it faith. Back them I would have said faith "is" baptism, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works which is a critical error that culminates in salvation by works.

I once shared Ephesians 2:8,9 with a Roman Catholic and told him we are saved by grace through faith, not works and that Roman Catholic answered, "I know that." But as we discussed it further, I could tell he misinterpreted Ephesians 2:8,9 as saved by grace through faith "infused" with good works and just not saved by works of the law. That same Roman Catholic denied that the Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by faith AND WORKS and then he contradicted himself by sharing this with me below in blue.

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I believed the same thing that he believes above which must be the only thing that the natural man can understand. (1 Corinthians 2;14) His argument about faith being defined as and INCLUDES these works above (yet at the same time denying that Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by faith and works) is just sugar-coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) and works.

mailmandan · Tuesday at 7:45 AM

studier said:

Multiple acts of obedience which are produced out of faith are works.

studier · Tuesday at 7:46 AM

mailmandan said:

So, faith and obedience are parallel, or obedience then faith?

Repentance/choosing to believe = obedience, correct?

Repentance/believing = obedience, correct?

Intersection · Tuesday at 7:49 AM

No one who chooses to believe false doctrine, into eternity, is ever saved.

mailmandan · Tuesday at 7:51 AM

studier said:

There is a distinction between the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) after changing our mind in repentance (Acts 11:17,18) and multiple acts of obedience/works which follow.

Just like there is a distinction between God's will for us in order to BECOME saved (John 6:40) with God's will for us AFTER we have been saved. (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18)

It sounds to me like you may be trying to turn the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel into just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works through your faith/obedience parallel.

Out of curiosity, where do you attend church?

studier · Tuesday at 8:15 AM

mailmandan said:

OK. But this is not what I'm asking you and I think that's clear.

mailmandan said:

Incorrect.

I'm simply trying to clarify what you're saying, and I think it's very simple for you to agree or disagree with what I'm asking you or to clarify apart from repeating your statement. I think your statement is saying precisely what I'm saying that there is no faith apart from obedience. I also think you're concerned about agreeing because you think I'm leading you into something you won't like.

What did you think of @Believer08 posts #78 & #79?

studier · Tuesday at 8:52 AM

mailmandan said:

This is how I'm reading you:

A single act of obedience is choosing to believe and though believe is an act of obedience it is not a work,

Faith/Obedience but not Works so no man can boast.
Then Faith/Obedience + Good Works or Faith/Obedience/Good Works

Biblical Faith in God is always the same - it's Faith/Obedience - Faith-Obedience. It doesn't become something different after we first believe/obey the Gospel.

@GWH has been posting something he learned about this, which we should all probably wring out and see if we agree or disagree with it or want to tweak it a bit.

Then we start discussing salvation, justification(s), assurance/security, etc. and Jesus' command in John6:27.

BTW, the minute you used the words act, obedience, and choosing, I know or knew some who would say you still need to come further out from Rome.

Another BTW, didn't you change your avatar and remove Jerry?

Believer08 · Tuesday at 9:38 AM

studier said:

A lot of people thinks works are all the same and completely overlook John 6:28-29, where right after Jesus was asked, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” He said “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”

studier · Tuesday at 10:22 AM

Believer08 said:

I think what this boils down to, Believer08, is that many have been taught that faith is just a simplistic word we can understand from a dictionary or a Greek word we can define completely with a dictionary or lexicon. We can begin there, but then we can see from work like the 2 articles you posted, that Faith as God uses the word requires more than a dictionary or a lexicon. The Rom10 and Heb3 explanations in the articles show how NC writers understood Biblical Faith in relation to obedience according to understandings of the OC and what God means by "Faith".

Re: John6:27-29, there are a few ways we can interpret these verses. One of the first things an interpreter needs to consider is what Jesus means when He says, "This is the work of God..." because "This" in the Greek word can be referring to what follows or to what precedes - IOW what Jesus commanded in 6:27. Then, "the work [of] God" - "of" not actually being in the Greek but simply a very basic way of translating the grammar - can be translated in about 30+ ways that provide much more specificity to what Jesus means. Look at "of" in an English dictionary and you'll see how English is not much different.

If you've read any of @PaulThomson posts re: these verses, you'll see him posting similarly. Paul got me to look at these verses again and I think his view must be considered.

Heb11:1 which many take as a definition of faith also needs to be considered in some depth as to what it's all really saying.

studier · Tuesday at 11:08 AM

mailmandan said:

Thanks for posting this. It explains a few things.

I've had some horrendous discussions with some Roman Catholics who were so oriented to the Pope and so unread in the Bible that there really was no talking to them. I recall one man who immediately took aggressive issue with me - so much so that his wife and friends had to ask him to sit back - simply because I pointed out that it's really an issue of what we believe about Jesus Christ.

On the other hand, there was a man on some other forum who decided after years in [the free for all denominationalism of] Protestantism that he came to desire something more historical back to the Church Fathers, so he switched to Catholicism and had been there for some time. His resultant views on Salvation, Faith, and Works surprised me and were as sound as I've read on any forum as I recall.

Is having faith/belief obeying?

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