The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
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A true statement but you are adding your bias into its purpose.
The verse does not state who the Father gives to Jesus, just that He does.
You and others believe that the Father gives all who at some point in time have a sincere moment of faith.
Others myself included believe that the Father gives all who obey Jesus to the end.
Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Mark 13:13
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Hebrews 3:14
For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
Revelation 2:26
The one who conquers and who keeps my works to the end, to him I will give authority over the nations,
John 6:37 does not prove your theology.
The verse does not state who the Father gives to Jesus, just that He does.
You and others believe that the Father gives all who at some point in time have a sincere moment of faith.
Others myself included believe that the Father gives all who obey Jesus to the end.
Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Mark 13:13
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Hebrews 3:14
For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
Revelation 2:26
The one who conquers and who keeps my works to the end, to him I will give authority over the nations,
John 6:37 does not prove your theology.
To the contrary. And all of John 6 does too.
And, there's something to be said for perseverance on our part, this is true.
James 1.
However, when Jesus tells us we will never be lost to him, I think that is enough to secure the argument that says,when God can save us he can certainly know how to keep us in him.
John 10
27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Do you know anything about sheep?
And, there's something to be said for perseverance on our part, this is true.
James 1.
However, when Jesus tells us we will never be lost to him, I think that is enough to secure the argument that says,when God can save us he can certainly know how to keep us in him.
John 10
27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Do you know anything about sheep?
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I agree that 2CR 5:10 might be understood as indicating degrees of reward, but 5:19&21 teach that the sins of believers are born by Christ.
The crowns are synonymous for salvation to heaven.
1CR 3:12-15 speaks of one work (it) and a reward, indicating only the two opposite destinies of hell and heaven.
I agree with your thinking, being a couple of years older. I think we will share one heaven with all saints, so any degrees of happiness are related to various degrees of suffering for Christ during one's earthly sojourn.
The crowns are synonymous for salvation to heaven.
1CR 3:12-15 speaks of one work (it) and a reward, indicating only the two opposite destinies of hell and heaven.
I agree with your thinking, being a couple of years older. I think we will share one heaven with all saints, so any degrees of happiness are related to various degrees of suffering for Christ during one's earthly sojourn.
This part:
MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”
GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”
2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”
HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”
2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”
GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”
2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”
HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”
2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
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The changing of what Heb6:6 says is really a problem. The terrible practice of changing Scripture to suit one's upbringing in an interpretive tradition is actually disgusting and we should all be working against it.
Firstly, we can see from a few English translations that the word "if" is not actually in this verse. I can confirm it's not in the Greek Text but is simply how the NKJ translators are treating a participle that basically means "falling away". Here's how the BDAG Lexicon defines the word: to fail to follow through on a commitment, fall away, commit apostasy. Most literally it means to fall aside.
The "impossibility" (to renew to repentance those who fall away} is brought forward to 6:4 in all but the NAS translation below:
So, there is no "could" being stated in this verse as in the "if they could fall away" as was earlier inserted by @Everlasting-Grace.
This word meaning "fall away" is not used extensively, but where it is used gives us a good amount of information as to the severity of the way it's used in Scripture:
I wouldn't try to soften the scenario being stated in Heb6. In fact, I would recognize that it's in the context of taking very seriously growing up from Christian infancy to Christian maturity by moving on from basic teachings (milk) to advanced teachings (meat) that the mature eat (learn and do). There's also a warning in Heb6:3 about this required Christian growth. The writer is rebuking Christians who should have grown up by now Heb5. Then he talks about this requirement to get to "perfection" (maturity/completion) and then the warning for those who don't get this: 3 And this we will do if God permits. (Heb. 6:3 NKJ).
It's not wise to play games with God. His Children take Him seriously. The falling away discussion is explaining foremost 6:3. IOW this lack of commitment in growing up to spiritual maturity may well be seen as falling away and putting Christ to open shame. As I've said before, Christ did die to make infants, but to bring sons to maturity - to completion - to perfection. At some point our Father may evaluate and say, "enough". Note the BDAG definition re: failing to follow through on a commitment.
I'd be very aware of anyone changing this language for any reason including for making it fit an interpretive tradition. God has told us what He expects of us. Language such as this tells us it's not some game we're playing.
Firstly, we can see from a few English translations that the word "if" is not actually in this verse. I can confirm it's not in the Greek Text but is simply how the NKJ translators are treating a participle that basically means "falling away". Here's how the BDAG Lexicon defines the word: to fail to follow through on a commitment, fall away, commit apostasy. Most literally it means to fall aside.
The "impossibility" (to renew to repentance those who fall away} is brought forward to 6:4 in all but the NAS translation below:
YLT Hebrews 6:6 and having fallen away, again to renew them to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.
NKJ Hebrews 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
- From the NKJ Bible Notes: Or [and have fallen away].
NET Hebrews 6:6 and then have committed apostasy, to renew them again to repentance, since they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again and holding him up to contempt.
- From the NET Bible Notes: Or "have fallen away."
ESV Hebrews 6:6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
NAS Hebrews 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.
So, there is no "could" being stated in this verse as in the "if they could fall away" as was earlier inserted by @Everlasting-Grace.
This word meaning "fall away" is not used extensively, but where it is used gives us a good amount of information as to the severity of the way it's used in Scripture:
NKJ Est. 6:10 Then the king said to Haman, "Hurry, take the robe and the horse, as you have suggested, and do so for Mordecai the Jew who sits within the king's gate! Leave nothing undone of all that you have spoken." (of what you've spoken, let nothing fall away)
NKJ Ezek. 14:13 "Son of man, when a land sins against Me by persistent unfaithfulness, I will stretch out My hand against it; I will cut off its supply of bread, send famine on it, and cut off man and beast from it. (to fall away [in] violation is how the Hebrew phrase re: persistent unfaithfulness is translated in the Greek LXX)
NKJ Ezek. 15:8 'Thus I will make the land desolate, because they have persisted in unfaithfulness,' says the Lord GOD." (essentially the same Greek meaning as 14:13)
NKJ Ezek. 18:24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. (Greek the violation in which he has fallen away)
NKJ Ezek. 20:27 "Therefore, son of man, speak to the house of Israel, and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "In this too your fathers have blasphemed Me, by being unfaithful to Me. (Greek: in their violations in which they fell away)
NKJ Ezek. 22:4 "You have become guilty by the blood which you have shed, and have defiled yourself with the idols which you have made. You have caused your days to draw near, and have come to the end of your years; therefore I have made you a reproach to the nations, and a mockery to all countries. (Greek You have fallen away)
I wouldn't try to soften the scenario being stated in Heb6. In fact, I would recognize that it's in the context of taking very seriously growing up from Christian infancy to Christian maturity by moving on from basic teachings (milk) to advanced teachings (meat) that the mature eat (learn and do). There's also a warning in Heb6:3 about this required Christian growth. The writer is rebuking Christians who should have grown up by now Heb5. Then he talks about this requirement to get to "perfection" (maturity/completion) and then the warning for those who don't get this: 3 And this we will do if God permits. (Heb. 6:3 NKJ).
It's not wise to play games with God. His Children take Him seriously. The falling away discussion is explaining foremost 6:3. IOW this lack of commitment in growing up to spiritual maturity may well be seen as falling away and putting Christ to open shame. As I've said before, Christ did die to make infants, but to bring sons to maturity - to completion - to perfection. At some point our Father may evaluate and say, "enough". Note the BDAG definition re: failing to follow through on a commitment.
I'd be very aware of anyone changing this language for any reason including for making it fit an interpretive tradition. God has told us what He expects of us. Language such as this tells us it's not some game we're playing.
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My pointing out your lack of understanding on how definitions work does not put me on a high horse.
But your absurd response is evidence of a blind allegiance of a theology. This is the ditch that you are in.
I am certain that you do not use this reasoning with other issues in your life. No one does.
I simply ask you to look over your response to Post# 1021.
Can you not see how absurd it is to insist that the definition of apostasy must conform to such reasoning to be valid on the issue of OSAS?
But your absurd response is evidence of a blind allegiance of a theology. This is the ditch that you are in.
I am certain that you do not use this reasoning with other issues in your life. No one does.
I simply ask you to look over your response to Post# 1021.
Can you not see how absurd it is to insist that the definition of apostasy must conform to such reasoning to be valid on the issue of OSAS?
It (spiritual salvation) is either 100% a free gift which is irrevocable or it is achieving/accomplishing salvation by one's own effort.
It is completely dichotomous by God's design, one or the other, one is complete success, the other is doomed to failure.
Not one scripture teaches spiritual salvation is earned, accomplished or achieved by a person in any way and conversely to assert that salvation can be forfeited, lost or rejected is once again making salvation a human accomplishment.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Romans 4:4
It (spiritual salvation) is either 100% a free gift which is irrevocable or it is achieving/accomplishing salvation by one's own effort.
It is completely dichotomous by God's design, one or the other, one is complete success, the other is doomed to failure.
Not one scripture teaches spiritual salvation is earned, accomplished or achieved by a person in any way and conversely to assert that salvation can be forfeited, lost or rejected is once again making salvation a human accomplishment.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Romans 4:4
I understand the argument. But you'll have to explain Scripture you use and keep reminding me of the meaning of terminology like "spiritual salvation" and why you use it.
You'll also have to explain why you insert allegations like "by one's own effort" after I've explained Phil2:12-13 several times to show the exact opposite and how God is the key to our ability to accomplish our Salvation as He commands us to work to do.
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Once again, no one has made this claim.
You are attempting to muddy the water with your "achieve salvation" strawman.
No one is claiming to earn salvation.
Neither you or me.
Obedience does not equal earning and this is the sin that you are lodging against many here.
I recently wrote a check to the local SPCA.
Would you consider their depositing of the check as a form of earning the donation?
No, they simply obeyed the rules of finance in order to receive the benefit of the donation.
You are attempting to muddy the water with your "achieve salvation" strawman.
No one is claiming to earn salvation.
Neither you or me.
Obedience does not equal earning and this is the sin that you are lodging against many here.
I recently wrote a check to the local SPCA.
Would you consider their depositing of the check as a form of earning the donation?
No, they simply obeyed the rules of finance in order to receive the benefit of the donation.
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I would suggest you read the Parables of the Unforgiving Servant and the Prodigal Son.
Both teach the heart of God on these issues.
The unforgiving servant lost the forgiveness that was freely given to him by the grace of the Master (God).
The prodigal son lost the benefits freely given to him by being a living son to the Father (God).
The Master did not lose the servant and the Father did not lose the son.
They both left on their own.
Both teach the heart of God on these issues.
The unforgiving servant lost the forgiveness that was freely given to him by the grace of the Master (God).
The prodigal son lost the benefits freely given to him by being a living son to the Father (God).
The Master did not lose the servant and the Father did not lose the son.
They both left on their own.
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