Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

Act 10:2
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Act 10:4
And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
Act 10:22
And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Act 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Are you contending that Cornelius behaved like this, obeying the law written on his heart, all the while hating God?

In other words, you read "love" into the passage! Nice job of eisegesis!

But the passage does say that Cornelius "feared God". How do you suppose Cornelius did that, i.e. "fear God"? After all, Paul said no one fears God -- there's no fear of God before any unregenerate's eyes (Rom 3:18). So....how did Cornelius pull that stunt off?

 

[PaulThomson]

Your understanding is contaminated up by all your worldly presuppositions. As stated to Studier the other day, Paul is making a commentary on 1Ki 19 and drawing an analogy between two distinct ages of Jews. Since in Paul's day God still reserved a remnant according to his gracious choice, or as the ESV reads, "a remnant chosen by grace" (Rom 11:5), then this must also have been true of the 7,000 who remained faithful to YHWH in Elijah's day. They remained true to God because he graciously chose them to be faithful to him. To say the 7,000 remained faithful because they chose God would destroy Paul's analogy.

They remained faithful because they kept trusting God, is what I said. Yahweh chose them by grace because they took the effortless, universally feasible route to righteousness: simply trusting Yahweh.

 

[PaulThomson]

In other words, you read "love" into the passage! Nice job of eisegesis!

But the passage does say that Cornelius "feared God". How do you suppose Cornelius did that, i.e. "fear God"? After all, Paul said no one fears God -- there's no fear of God before any unregenerate's eyes (Rom 3:18). So....how did Cornelius pull that stunt off?

He listened to the Hebrew scriptures and submitted to many of their injunctions out of an appreciation for the superior quality of Yahweh over other gods, as revealed in the Hebrew scriptures,and a willingness to trust Yahweh, demonstrated by obeying His word.

 

[PaulThomson]

In other words, you read "love" into the passage! Nice job of eisegesis!

But the passage does say that Cornelius "feared God". How do you suppose Cornelius did that, i.e. "fear God"? After all, Paul said no one fears God -- there's no fear of God before any unregenerate's eyes (Rom 3:18). So....how did Cornelius pull that stunt off?

Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." It stands to reason that if someone loves Yahweh, they will keep Yahweh's commandments.
Also. if you love the father you will aslo love His children. So, if someone loves Yahweh, he will be a benefactor towards Yahweh's children,

 

[Rufus]

They remained faithful because they kept trusting God, is what I said. Yahweh chose them by grace because they took the effortless, universally feasible route to righteousness: simply trusting Yahweh.

That's not what Paul said in Rom 11! You're ignoring the analogy. Just as God has reserved a remnant of NC messianic Jews chosen by grace, then the same must be true for the remnant God reserved for himself in Elijah's day. "SO TOO in this present age...". IOW, likewise, or in the same way, or in the same manner or in the same fashion, etc.

 

[PaulThomson]

That's not what Paul said in Rom 11! You're ignoring the analogy. Just as God has reserved a remnant of NC messianic Jews chosen by grace, then the same must be true for the remnant God reserved for himself in Elijah's day. "SO TOO in this present age...". IOW, likewise, or in the same way, or in the same manner or in the same fashion, etc.

Which is exactly what I said.

The 7000 were chosen because they trusted Yahweh (i.e. election by grace through faith) and did not hedge their bets by also trusting in other gods. And in the same way, the present remnant of Jews are chosen because they trust in Jesus (i.e. election by grace through faith) and do not hedge their bets by also trusting in other gods.

 

[Rufus]

Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." It stands to reason that if someone loves Yahweh, they will keep Yahweh's commandments.
Also. if you love the father you will aslo love His children. So, if someone loves Yahweh, he will be a benefactor towards Yahweh's children,

Again, Luke didn't write that Cornelious loved God, but a few times in Act 10, he did write how Cornelius feared God. How did Cornelius do that since all of us come into this world as rebels against God since birth (Isa 48:8)!

 

[Rufus]

Which is exactly what I said.

The 7000 were chosen because they trusted Yahweh (i.e. election by grace through faith) and did not hedge their bets by also trusting in other gods. And in the same way, the present remnant of Jews are chosen because they trust in Jesus (i.e. election by grace through faith) and do not hedge their bets by also trusting in other gods.

No, you're contradicting Paul. The 7,000 were chosen by God's grace which is why they trusted him! Paul did not say in Rom 11 that the remnant of Jews were chosen by God because they played nice with Him, i.e. believed in the Messiah. You're reading that presupposition into both passages.

 

[studier]

i would accept this on a logical basis but dear friend. did st. paul love Jesus? he was persecuting christians but God stepped in. noah found grace in the eyes of God. God opened the heart of lydia. the gentiles who heard rejoiced and believed, all who were appointed to eternal life.

its just hard to get around God initiating it. why did God choose st.paul? st.paul was according to his own words "chief of sinners". can you explain this?

Paul loved God as he knew Him and was zealously persecuting what he thought was not of God. So, God had initiated long before and Paul was zealously living as he had been trained and understood God wanted. IMO this would be similar to the Remnant in 1Kings which Paul drew upon in Rom11 compared to Rom8 at minimum. God had initiated > they did not bow to false gods > God saved them from the sword by grace. Our Lord initiated again to Paul - to a man who was bowed to God as he knew him - and Paul responded with Faith in Jesus being the Christ.

God had initiated in ancient times and Noah was said to be a righteous man, perfect in his generation, he walked with God. Then he was given grace to save him from judgment and death.

In some unexplained way, Lydia was said to be a woman who worshipped God (she was ceremonially expressing allegiance to God). The Lord then opened her heart to pay attention to Paul.

In all of these examples we see God giving grace to those who were not bowed to other gods.

Appointed to eternal life is indeed a challenging one. I have some work on it which I'll review and post from separately. It's interestingly just following what I see as Paul's most comprehensive evangelizing message to both Jews and god-fearing gentiles.

 

[studier]

Which is exactly what I said.

The 7000 were chosen because they trusted Yahweh (i.e. election by grace through faith) and did not hedge their bets by also trusting in other gods. And in the same way, the present remnant of Jews are chosen because they trust in Jesus (i.e. election by grace through faith) and do not hedge their bets by also trusting in other gods.

Just highlighting.

God had made Himself known > the 7,000 men did not bow to Baal > God graciously chose to keep them alive for Himself through the sword judgment.

The efforts to reverse this order reveal the eisegesis involved in this election issue - the U in TULIP.

The efforts to erase the faith recorded from Abel onward reveal the eisegesis involved in this election issue - the T in TULIP.

 

[studier]

No, you're contradicting Paul. The 7,000 were chosen by God's grace which is why they trusted him! Paul did not say in Rom 11 that the remnant of Jews were chosen by God because they played nice with Him, i.e. believed in the Messiah. You're reading that presupposition into both passages.

So blind...

 

[Rufus]

Paul loved God as he knew Him and was zealously persecuting what he thought was not of God. So, God had initiated long before and Paul was zealously living as he had been trained and understood God wanted. IMO this would be similar to the Remnant in 1Kings which Paul drew upon in Rom11 compared to Rom8 at minimum. God had initiated > they did not bow to false gods > God saved them from the sword by grace. Our Lord initiated again to Paul - to a man who was bowed to God as he knew him - and Paul responded with Faith in Jesus being the Christ.

God had initiated in ancient times and Noah was said to be a righteous man, perfect in his generation, he walked with God. Then he was given grace to save him from judgment and death.

In some unexplained way, Lydia was said to be a woman who worshipped God (she was ceremonially expressing allegiance to God). The Lord then opened her heart to pay attention to Paul.

In all of these examples we see God giving grace to those who were not bowed to other gods.

Appointed to eternal life is indeed a challenging one. I have some work on it which I'll review and post from separately. It's interestingly just following what I see as Paul's most comprehensive evangelizing message to both Jews and god-fearing gentiles.

Okay...so, the perverters of God's truth would have us believe that "Paul loved God [as he knew Him]". Another nice piece of eisegesis to support your false gospel! Plus our resident hater of God's sovereign grace gets to redefine "love" and what it means to "know" God. We're supposed to believe that Paul loved God even though he was persecuting God's own Son!? Really? Talk about stooping low in the gutter to redefine love! In Mr. Studier's eyes, Paul was not an enemy of God who needed to be reconciled to God, but rather was just a slightly misguided lover of Him! So...whatever this make-believe, phony, fake, fictitious love and knowledge Paul had for God was, it certainly wasn't love or knowledge as defined in the bible.

1 John 5:1-2
5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child [Jesus] as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
NIV

Will Mr. Studier now try to con us and tell us that Paul was carrying out God's commands when he persecuted his Son (His Body)? Or that Paul really did love the Son whom he hated? Or that Paul really was the Son's friend even though Paul was his enemy?

Our resident con artist also doesn't understand how dangerous zealousness can be! For it is also written:

Rom 10:2-3
2 I bear them witness that they [Jews] have a zeal for God , but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.
ESV

Paul was exactly like the rest of unbelieving Jews! This phony baloney knowledge that Paul had of God certainly was not saving knowledge. Nor was it the kind of knowledge that flows from eternal life! But I suppose Studier would quote this passage in defense of Paul:

Jer 9:23-24
23 Thus says the Lord: "Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches, 24 but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the Lord."
ESV

Or then again....maybe Mr. Studier cannot boast on Paul's behalf since love for God is totally dependent on God's grace, which is all backwards from what FWs believe! FWs believe that God's grace is dependent on man's "freewill" choices. But what saith the Lord?

Deut 30:6
6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
NIV

WHAT!? A circumcision made without human hands logically and chronologically precedes love!? Who would have ever thunk? Well, , Moses did as he, apparently, was a Calvinist! And for that God's friend deserves two

 

[Rufus]

So blind...

Projecting again...

 

[studier]

Okay...so, the perverters of God's truth would have us believe that "Paul loved God [as he knew Him]"

You'll need to do a little homework to understand Biblical love. Do a search if you have a site where you can do so for "lov*" to pick up the forms. Note in Deut how it's paralleled to keeping God's commandments and see how that's carried into 1John where John essentially defines the main meaning of love from Deut. et.al.

Note in other OC Scriptures how men pre-Christ loved God. Yet you tell us fallen men is fully incapable of such love.

You seem to think all this is new, but such NC instruction is not new:

NKJ Psalm 31:23 Oh, love the LORD, all you His saints! For the LORD preserves the faithful, And fully repays the proud person.

NET Psalm 31:23 Love the LORD, all you faithful followers of his! The LORD protects those who have integrity, but he pays back in full the one who acts arrogantly.

ESV Psalm 31:23 Love the LORD, all you his saints! The LORD preserves the faithful but abundantly repays the one who acts in pride.

The Shema has been part of life for millennia.

So, yes, there were people in the early NC time living in OC concepts of Faith and Love awaiting Messiah. They knew what love is and some were living it in accordance with the Scriptures. In this Psalm there is a parallelism between love and being faithful. The Deut. Scriptures and others parallel love and obedience. The Remnant had not bowed to Baal and thus in this respect were in obedience to commandments against bowing to idols. In this respect they were loving God. You're going to be hard-pressed to show that according to Paul's knowledge and understanding of the Tanakh that he did not love God as he knew God. God used that faith and love and redirected and retrained it and that zeal is in part why we have most of the NC Scriptures.

Honestly, Rufus, you have so much to learn but TULIP will sadly prevent it.

 

[Rufus]

You'll need to do a little homework to understand Biblical love. Do a search if you have a site where you can do so for "lov*" to pick up the forms. Note in Deut how it's paralleled to keeping God's commandments and see how that's carried into 1John where John essentially defines the main meaning of love from Deut. et.al.

Note in other OC Scriptures how men pre-Christ loved God. Yet you tell us fallen men is fully incapable of such love.

You seem to think all this is new, but such NC instruction is not new:

NKJ Psalm 31:23 Oh, love the LORD, all you His saints! For the LORD preserves the faithful, And fully repays the proud person.

NET Psalm 31:23 Love the LORD, all you faithful followers of his! The LORD protects those who have integrity, but he pays back in full the one who acts arrogantly.

ESV Psalm 31:23 Love the LORD, all you his saints! The LORD preserves the faithful but abundantly repays the one who acts in pride.

The Shema has been part of life for millennia.

So, yes, there were people in the early NC time living in OC concepts of Faith and Love awaiting Messiah. They knew what love is and some were living it in accordance with the Scriptures. In this Psalm there is a parallelism between love and being faithful. The Deut. Scriptures and others parallel love and obedience. The Remnant had not bowed to Baal and thus in this respect were in obedience to commandments against bowing to idols. In this respect they were loving God. You're going to be hard-pressed to show that according to Paul's knowledge and understanding of the Tanakh that he did not love God as he knew God. God used that faith and love and redirected and retrained it and that zeal is in part why we have most of the NC Scriptures.

Honestly, Rufus, you have so much to learn but TULIP will sadly prevent it.

Yeah... I read your drivel which failed to address the passages I quoted. Did you happen to notice in the Psalms you quoted that they're directed to God's Saints!? So, I suppose Paul was a saint before his encounter with Christ? He reconciled himself to God all on his own initiative, did he? He wasn't an enemy of Christ and of His people, was he? He was merely blowing off some steam when he was breathing the fire of his murderous threats towards God's people!

God loved Paul because he loved God in his own special way -- as "he knew Him"? Even though Paul was quite zealous to murder God's saints!?

And have you never read:

1 John 4:10
10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.?
NIV

But Paul is the big exception, right?

Or again:

1 John 4:19
19 We love because he first loved us
NIV

But of course, you have this all backwards. A really big part of your problem is that you're reading the OT back into the NT, when you should in fact be understanding and interpreting the OT in LIGHT of LATER revelation, i.e. the NT! It's no wonder at all that you make these outlandish, wild, crazy, unbiblical claims about Paul that he never made for himself! But this doesn't prevent you from make unsubstantiated claims about how God loved Paul him in spite of the fact that he was persecuting his Son -- no doubt in love, right? But what did Jesus himself teach about his Father's love?

John 16:27
27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
NIV

P.S. And if unregenerate sinners have all this natural love for God (in their own way, of course like Paul), why would He need to circumcise anyone's hardened, calloused heart to get them to love Him in the biblical way!?

 

[PaulThomson]

Again, Luke didn't write that Cornelious loved God, but a few times in Act 10, he did write how Cornelius feared God. How did Cornelius do that since all of us come into this world as rebels against God since birth (Isa 48:8)!

You may be an anomaly who was a rebel in the womb, but I doubt it. You were born innocent and the kingdom of God belonged to such as you were at birth, but you strayed since (apo) the innocence you had in the womb, learning to speak lies.

 

[PaulThomson]

1 John 4:10
10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.?
NIV

But Paul is the big exception, right?

Or again:

1 John 4:19
19 We love because he first loved us
NIV

The "we" is Christians there. It is not those outside the church. The reason we love God is different from the reasons those outside the church may love God. Those texts do not say, "Before we became Christians, we didn't ever love God."

 

[PaulThomson]

No, you're contradicting Paul. The 7,000 were chosen by God's grace which is why they trusted him! Paul did not say in Rom 11 that the remnant of Jews were chosen by God because they played nice with Him, i.e. believed in the Messiah. You're reading that presupposition into both passages.

Grace is universal. For God to select some to give grace or faith to, but not all, would not be grace, since grace and faith would be available only to a select group, whom God enabled to believe in Him, to the exclusion of others, whom He made incapable of believing in Him. In reality, grace and faith are available and possible for all without exception. To argue that people do not come because grace is withheld from them, is to propose an internally contradictory kind of grace: freely available but not universally accessible.

In truth, God's grace is freely available and universally accessible, but rejectable. And many choose to reject it.

 

[PaulThomson]

Just highlighting.

God had made Himself known > the 7,000 men did not bow to Baal > God graciously chose to keep them alive for Himself through the sword judgment.

The efforts to reverse this order reveal the eisegesis involved in this election issue - the U in TULIP.

The efforts to erase the faith recorded from Abel onward reveal the eisegesis involved in this election issue - the T in TULIP.

I would put this slightly differently.

Yahweh had made Himself known > the 7,000 men believed in Yahweh > because they believed in Yahweh the 7000 did not bow to Baal > God graciously chose to keep them alive for Himself through the sword judgment because they believed in Him, not because they did not physically bow to Baal, although their not bowing was an expression of, or evidence of, their faith in God.