Understanding God’s election
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@Rufus Rom11:5
ESV Romans 11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
The flow [of 1K19:14-18] is very clear:
This is really one of the basic arguments against the U in TULIP. The way you're handling 1K19 is a clear example of your eisegesis to place the cart before the horse.
ESV Romans 11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
- God has absolutely not rejected His people - Israelites
- Paul now begins to tighten this up
- God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew
- This is the same word Paul used in Rom8:29 so Paul ties us back to God’s Plan he instructed about in Rom8.
- The ones God foreknew/chose were the [Israelites] who loved God
- God has not rejected Israelites who love God
- To explain this from Scripture Paul draws back to 1Kings19 re: Elijah and the Remnant
- From 1Kings19 Elijah says Israel has rebelled against God and he is the only one who hasn’t
- Besides Elijah God has kept for Himself 7,000 who have not rebelled – they have not bowed the knee to Baal
- Just as in the time of Elijah, so also in Paul’s time there is a Remnant of Israelites who have not bowed to false gods - who have not rebelled against God
- From the tie to Rom8 (see Rom11:2) these are the Israelites whom God foreknew – God chose – those Israelites who love God (as did the Remnant)
- Just as in Rom8:33 Paul again uses “eklogē” (elect, chosen) thus tying even tighter back to Rom8.
- And Paul now brings God’s Grace into the instruction
- God chose men who love God
- Those who love God are God’s Chosen – God’s Elect – by God’s Grace
- So, taking this back to the 7,000 in 1Kings19, Paul is saying God leaving them alive was by God’s Grace
- By Grace God chose men who did not bow the knee to Baal
- By Grace God chose men who love God
- Those who love God are God’s Chosen – God’s Elect – by God’s Grace
- God chose men who love God
- Now Paul tightens up this by Grace concept.
- Going back to the 7,000 in 1Kings19 and comparing to Rom8 & 11:
- They did not bow the knee to Baal
- They loved God
- They were faithful to God (Paul will get into unbelief vs. belief as he continues in Rom11)
- So, Paul is not applying this Grace to works of the Remnant but to their remaining faithful to God – to loving God (to love a king in ancient times was to be loyal to the king).
- They remained loyal <> they loved God <> They had faith > God gave them Grace
- They did not bow the knee to Baal
- This will begin instruction re: those who love God – those God chose because they love God vs. the rebellious who do not love God and all the instruction re: hardening and unbelief.
The flow [of 1K19:14-18] is very clear:
- Some men had not bowed to Baal
- A judgment will take place
- God will leave [alive] those who had not bowed to Baal
- They were not faithful because God chose them
- God chose them because they were faithful
This is really one of the basic arguments against the U in TULIP. The way you're handling 1K19 is a clear example of your eisegesis to place the cart before the horse.
God chose men who had chosen not to bow to Baal. Per IK19 and by the time Paul deals with this in Rom8 & Rom11 - these are men who love God - men who did not rebel against God - men who were not in unbelief.
If you reject the word "loyal" I understand but it's based in additional applicable Scripture and is synonymous with "faithful" which is applicable to the concept of not bowing to another god. If you don't like the concept of men choosing to be faithful/loyal, prove your case.
If you reject the word "loyal" I understand but it's based in additional applicable Scripture and is synonymous with "faithful" which is applicable to the concept of not bowing to another god. If you don't like the concept of men choosing to be faithful/loyal, prove your case.
PaulThomson said:
If I have 100 dollars and use a business coach so that 100 dollars to make 10,000 dollars, the fruit of my business coaches input is more capital. It is not logical to argue that because the 500 was made with the help of the coach, the coach must have given me the seed 100 dollars, and must have just given me the 500 dollars. It just does not follow.
Nor does it follow that, if the fruit of the Holy Spirit, as I follow His lead, is greater works of faith, that the seed faith must been given to me by the Holy Spirit and the greater faith was simply given to me by Him too.The language does not require that conclusion.
To be honest, I don't see how any of your post connects to anything in my post that you are citing and responding to. Could you, please, explain how your comments connect to mine? What in my argumentation are you saying is wrong exactly?
If I have 100 dollars and use a business coach so that 100 dollars to make 10,000 dollars, the fruit of my business coaches input is more capital. It is not logical to argue that because the 500 was made with the help of the coach, the coach must have given me the seed 100 dollars, and must have just given me the 500 dollars. It just does not follow.
Nor does it follow that, if the fruit of the Holy Spirit, as I follow His lead, is greater works of faith, that the seed faith must been given to me by the Holy Spirit and the greater faith was simply given to me by Him too.The language does not require that conclusion.
To be honest, I don't see how any of your post connects to anything in my post that you are citing and responding to. Could you, please, explain how your comments connect to mine? What in my argumentation are you saying is wrong exactly?
Basically, that the receiving of faith and growing in faith are two different yet related things. If I understand your point correctly, you seem to see only the latter.
The original point of the post in the chain (from GWH) that I replied to, was faith - faith as a fruit of the Spirit - it not being by man - after which, you joined that discussion. I was trying to show how true faith is spiritually imputed from/by Him (which I assumed your post continued to reference). So, by faith first having been spiritually imputed, we continue to intellectually grow/increase over time, into the faith we've been given spiritually, which manifests more and more into our awareness, and thereby, we grow in understanding and in our actions of faith - which is our growing in faith. Nevertheless, true faith, as the fruit of the Holy Spirit, was imputed unto us upon His indwelling within us.
Anyway, for whatever it's worth, as far as I can see, this is how faith as described by scripture, works.
Sorry, if I've am still misunderstanding your point.
[2Co 4:13 KJV] 13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
[Gal 3:23 KJV] 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
The original point of the post in the chain (from GWH) that I replied to, was faith - faith as a fruit of the Spirit - it not being by man - after which, you joined that discussion. I was trying to show how true faith is spiritually imputed from/by Him (which I assumed your post continued to reference). So, by faith first having been spiritually imputed, we continue to intellectually grow/increase over time, into the faith we've been given spiritually, which manifests more and more into our awareness, and thereby, we grow in understanding and in our actions of faith - which is our growing in faith. Nevertheless, true faith, as the fruit of the Holy Spirit, was imputed unto us upon His indwelling within us.
Anyway, for whatever it's worth, as far as I can see, this is how faith as described by scripture, works.
Sorry, if I've am still misunderstanding your point.
[2Co 4:13 KJV] 13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
[Gal 3:23 KJV] 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Saw the bottom of this post.
7 So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. (Gen. 6:7-9 NKJ)
YHWH seems to respond with grace to men of faith. 6:9 explains 6:8. I expect it to be reversed.
He did the same thing with the Remnant in 1Kings19. They had not bowed to Baal > God responded with Grace.
The wise in Proverbs had this understanding: 34 Surely He scorns the scornful, But gives grace to the humble. (Prov. 3:34 NKJ)
7 So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. (Gen. 6:7-9 NKJ)
YHWH seems to respond with grace to men of faith. 6:9 explains 6:8. I expect it to be reversed.
He did the same thing with the Remnant in 1Kings19. They had not bowed to Baal > God responded with Grace.
The wise in Proverbs had this understanding: 34 Surely He scorns the scornful, But gives grace to the humble. (Prov. 3:34 NKJ)
Not precise, but false?
As I asked before, which part? Or which parts?
Again, if you're questioning my use of "loyal" there are reasons I used the word, especially in books like Kings:
NET 1 Ki. 1:52 Solomon said, "If he is a loyal subject, not a hair of his head will be harmed, but if he is found to be a traitor, he will die."
NET 1 Ki. 3:3 Solomon demonstrated his loyalty to the LORD by following the practices of his father David, except that he offered sacrifices and burned incense on the high places.
NET 1 Ki. 3:6 Solomon replied, "You demonstrated great loyalty to your servant, my father David, as he served you faithfully, properly, and sincerely. You have maintained this great loyalty to this day by allowing his son to sit on his throne.
NET 1 Ki. 8:23 He prayed: "O LORD, God of Israel, there is no god like you in heaven above or on earth below! You maintain covenantal loyalty to your servants who obey you with sincerity.
NET 1 Ki. 11:6 Solomon did evil in the LORD's sight; he did not remain loyal to the LORD, like his father David had.
NET 1 Ki. 12:20 When all Israel heard that Jeroboam had returned, they summoned him to the assembly and made him king over all Israel. No one except the tribe of Judah remained loyal to the Davidic dynasty.
NET 1 Ki. 12:27 If these people go up to offer sacrifices in the LORD's temple in Jerusalem, their loyalty could shift to their former master, King Rehoboam of Judah. They might kill me and return to King Rehoboam of Judah."
NET 1 Ki. 16:21 At that time the people of Israel were divided in their loyalties. Half the people supported Tibni son of Ginath and wanted to make him king; the other half supported Omri.
NET 1 Ki. 18:3 So Ahab summoned Obadiah, who supervised the palace. (Now Obadiah was a very loyal follower of the LORD.
NET 1 Ki. 18:12 But when I leave you, the LORD's spirit will carry you away so I can't find you. If I go tell Ahab I've seen you, he won't be able to find you and he will kill me. That would not be fair, because your servant has been a loyal follower of the LORD from my youth.
NET 1 Ki. 19:10 He answered, "I have been absolutely loyal to the LORD, the sovereign God, even though the Israelites have abandoned the agreement they made with you, torn down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword. I alone am left and now they want to take my life."
NET 1 Ki. 19:14 He answered, "I have been absolutely loyal to the LORD, the sovereign God, even though the Israelites have abandoned the agreement they made with you, torn down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword. I alone am left and now they want to take my life."
As you can see in this translation, loyalty is an issue in 1Kings. We can see Elijah stressing it in the Remnant context. There has been a lot of research and work done in the area of covenantal loyalty to better understand how God works.
If you're disagreeing with the concept of men choosing to remain loyal, or faithful, to God, then please make your case with Scripture.
As I asked before, which part? Or which parts?
Again, if you're questioning my use of "loyal" there are reasons I used the word, especially in books like Kings:
NET 1 Ki. 1:52 Solomon said, "If he is a loyal subject, not a hair of his head will be harmed, but if he is found to be a traitor, he will die."
NET 1 Ki. 3:3 Solomon demonstrated his loyalty to the LORD by following the practices of his father David, except that he offered sacrifices and burned incense on the high places.
NET 1 Ki. 3:6 Solomon replied, "You demonstrated great loyalty to your servant, my father David, as he served you faithfully, properly, and sincerely. You have maintained this great loyalty to this day by allowing his son to sit on his throne.
NET 1 Ki. 8:23 He prayed: "O LORD, God of Israel, there is no god like you in heaven above or on earth below! You maintain covenantal loyalty to your servants who obey you with sincerity.
NET 1 Ki. 11:6 Solomon did evil in the LORD's sight; he did not remain loyal to the LORD, like his father David had.
NET 1 Ki. 12:20 When all Israel heard that Jeroboam had returned, they summoned him to the assembly and made him king over all Israel. No one except the tribe of Judah remained loyal to the Davidic dynasty.
NET 1 Ki. 12:27 If these people go up to offer sacrifices in the LORD's temple in Jerusalem, their loyalty could shift to their former master, King Rehoboam of Judah. They might kill me and return to King Rehoboam of Judah."
NET 1 Ki. 16:21 At that time the people of Israel were divided in their loyalties. Half the people supported Tibni son of Ginath and wanted to make him king; the other half supported Omri.
NET 1 Ki. 18:3 So Ahab summoned Obadiah, who supervised the palace. (Now Obadiah was a very loyal follower of the LORD.
NET 1 Ki. 18:12 But when I leave you, the LORD's spirit will carry you away so I can't find you. If I go tell Ahab I've seen you, he won't be able to find you and he will kill me. That would not be fair, because your servant has been a loyal follower of the LORD from my youth.
NET 1 Ki. 19:10 He answered, "I have been absolutely loyal to the LORD, the sovereign God, even though the Israelites have abandoned the agreement they made with you, torn down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword. I alone am left and now they want to take my life."
NET 1 Ki. 19:14 He answered, "I have been absolutely loyal to the LORD, the sovereign God, even though the Israelites have abandoned the agreement they made with you, torn down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword. I alone am left and now they want to take my life."
As you can see in this translation, loyalty is an issue in 1Kings. We can see Elijah stressing it in the Remnant context. There has been a lot of research and work done in the area of covenantal loyalty to better understand how God works.
If you're disagreeing with the concept of men choosing to remain loyal, or faithful, to God, then please make your case with Scripture.
Even the ungodly world understands that helpless, powerless people need not give their permission to rescue them from a hopeless situation from which they cannot extricate themselves. A friend of a friend of mine recently had a bad motorcycle accident that destroyed his bike and nearly took the guys' life. But a passing motorist saw the bike and its rider lying on the side of the road and immediately initiated a rescue operation because the rider was unconscious. I guess in your world, the kind and compassionate motorist should have waited to see if the rider regained consciousness, and then asked him if he wanted to be saved? How presumptuous and arrogant of the motorist to invade the space of the badly injured biker. 
That's what Scripture says. I actually favor BDAG #2 - choose vs. foreknow. Again, love in the ancient world when dealing with a sovereign was basically equivalent to being faithful or loyal. There are unregenerate God-haters and unregenerate men who had faith from Abel forward. You've been shown this many, many times.
Even the ungodly world understands that helpless, powerless people need not give their permission to rescue them from a hopeless situation from which they cannot extricate themselves. A friend of a friend of mine recently had a bad motorcycle accident that destroyed his bike and nearly took the guys' life. But a passing motorist saw the bike and its rider lying on the side of the road and immediately initiated a rescue operation because the rider was unconscious. I guess in your world, the kind and compassionate motorist should have waited to see if the rider regained consciousness, and then asked him if he wanted to be saved? How presumptuous and arrogant of the motorist to invade the space of the badly injured biker.
i would accept this on a logical basis but dear friend. did st. paul love Jesus? he was persecuting christians but God stepped in. noah found grace in the eyes of God. God opened the heart of lydia. the gentiles who heard rejoiced and believed, all who were appointed to eternal life.
its just hard to get around God initiating it. why did God choose st.paul? st.paul was according to his own words "chief of sinners". can you explain this?
its just hard to get around God initiating it. why did God choose st.paul? st.paul was according to his own words "chief of sinners". can you explain this?
as a sidenote i will use this argument again, which is so good and convincing to me:
if God foreknows everything that will happen, and chose to create the universe, then everything is predestinated.
if you believe God knows the future, you believe everything is predestinated. you can claim foreknowledge does not equal causation, and normally it would not. if i know the score of the football game i did not cause it to happen. but if i was the creator of the universe, then its all on me. i chose to create knowing how people would use their free will, there is only one way it can go, its all predestinated.
only consistent arminian is the open theist.
if God foreknows everything that will happen, and chose to create the universe, then everything is predestinated.
if you believe God knows the future, you believe everything is predestinated. you can claim foreknowledge does not equal causation, and normally it would not. if i know the score of the football game i did not cause it to happen. but if i was the creator of the universe, then its all on me. i chose to create knowing how people would use their free will, there is only one way it can go, its all predestinated.
only consistent arminian is the open theist.
Give me one text in scripture that teaches that unregenerate sinners love God! In my universe of the Holy Word of God, the Word teaches that there is no spiritual soundness in unregenerate sinners! In, fact their hearts are so desperately wicked and deceitful above all else, the prophet exclaims: "who can know/understand it" (Jer 17:9)? And you, sir, are the living, breathing poster boy that bears witness to the truth of the prophet's rhetorical question. You don't have the first clue!