Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

@Rufus sees election in every jot and tittle (as they say) in the Text.

A few observations:

NKJ 2 Thess. 2:13-15 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

• Another manuscript rather than "from the beginning" says "God chose you [as] first fruits"
• As you say, the kai here is just connecting sanctification and belief. They are just coupled together. I see no sequence.
• The sanctification [of] spirit and belief [of] truth
  • The [of] can be translated several ways.
  • Some food for thought which we can with into further similar interpretation: We so habitually look at "sanctification" in the sense of God sanctifying us - setting us apart - but it also has the sense of personal dedication to the interests of a deity (BDAG). So, sanctification [of] Spirit can also mean dedication [of] spirit describing the dedication of the person, which would go along with the persons belief [of] truth.
  • "Chose" is a good translation and it can also mean to "take". It's a middle voice so it shows some personal interest or benefit for the chooser - God chose you (pl) [for himself] for salvation.
  • The preposition being translated "through" I wouldn't translate that way. It's "en" and can be translated many ways, one of which can be its marking the state or condition of the ones being chosen for salvation (they are in a dedicated and believing state), or in close association with dedication and belief, or because of/on account of dedication and belief, etc.
  • As I write this the sanctification/dedication and belief seem more and more to be parallel (which the kai can denote). Belief is paralleled in the NC with obedience making them essentially two sides of the same coin. "Dedication" seems to fit right in. I can run with this Scripturally and the first place I'd go, is back to John4:24 area where Jesus makes emphatically clear that God is seeking men who will bow in obeisance to Him "en" spirit and truth - the same words and concept Paul may well be dealing with here in 2Thess.

14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

• Another thing the @Rufus Calvinistic tradition is not going to like is that the Gospel is the means/instrument God uses to call/invite/summon for salvation. This is more detail of the power God has provided in the Gospel, which that Rufus tradition IMO, at least as Rufus plays it, substantially diminishes.
• The call/invitation of the Gospel for the goal of obtaining/possessing the glory of our Lord Jesus is IMO another summary of Salvation from start to finish which is precisely what I've been attempting to make clear in discussion re: 2Cor3-4. This concept of Salvation A-Z (or better, alpha to omega) is the undercurrent or interwoven thread of much NC Scripture. IOW Jesus didn't die and ascend to just bring people in but to inevitably make adult sons for our Father. IOW Salvation is more about the Z/Omega than the A/Alpha (the advance to glorification of sons in the image of the Son and First-Born).
• Then the icing on the cake here, is Paul's command to hold-fast the "traditions" (the content of instructions) he taught, which I would put up against other traditions being aggressively put forth here, most notably by @Rufus.

Thanks for the response. I'm enjoying your input.

The Holy Spirit didn't inspire the scriptures sloppily or in some haphazard fashion. The order of words and phrases in scripture is very important; for they very often reveal a logical or chronological sequence. And just because "sanctification" can mean something different doesn't mean that in this passage it can't mean what it typically means and how it's most often understood, i.e. set apart. The concept of being set apart runs throughout scripture and fits with all the other processes associated with salvation. When the Father draws someone to the Son, he's drawing them from their old life to a new life that is to be found in the Son and appropriated by faith in Him.

And, yes, the Gospel is the EXTERNAL call of the Gospel -- and this external call will always fall on deaf/dead ears unless it's accompanied by the internal, effectual call of the Spirit.

 

[studier]

No, I'm not arguing that! But you were arguing that very thing with your lame analogy, i.e. most gifts are physically and consciously received. But this isn't the case with Spiritual Life! We no more choose to be born from above than we chose to be born here below.

Quite wrong, but consistently traditional error.

 

[Magenta]

And, yes, the Gospel is the EXTERNAL call of the Gospel -- and this external call will always
fall on deaf/dead ears unless it's accompanied by the internal, effectual call of the Spirit.

I wonder why so many have so much difficulty accepting this. I have asked numerous times how many times someone "heard" the gospel preached before they believed what was being told to them. I do not believe one person has ever answered. And of course hearing must encompass comprehension. They want to just claim everyone hears even though Jesus said otherwise. Then we get told, oh, Jesus said that to people in His day and age and it does not apply any more, as if nobody needs their ears opened, nobody needs their eyes opened, nobody needs their minds opened, nobody needs their hearts circumcised, nobody is under the influence of the evil one, nobody is taken captive to the will of the devil, nobody is a slave to sin. Gosh, I have even been told too much emphasis is put on the word slave. It gets quite deep into twilight zone territory around here. We were all enslaved under the basic principles of the world before being set free. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery. KJV uses the word bondage which is defined Biblically as Slavery or involuntary servitude; captivity; imprisonment; restraint of a person's liberty by compulsion.

 

[Magenta]

Quite wrong, but consistently traditional error.

Oh, another one who believes they raised their own self from death. How predictable.

 

[studier]

2Cor 4 doesn't teach that Satan blinds the minds of some men. You still insist on reading your assumptions into the text. And when men turn to the Lord then we can be sure the veil has been lifted. They're been cured of their blindness.

Again, quite wrong. Summon all your cognitive strength while praying for the tradition-based veil to be removed:

NET 2 Cor. 4:3-4 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they would not see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God.

• In those who are perishing
  • The Gospel is veiled
  • The god of that era has blinded their minds
  • They do not believe

Irrespective of what you allege, some turn and some don't turn. The blinded ones who don't turn are above described.

This is your failure in connecting the grammar of 2Cor4:6 properly. You highlighted that failure in your original teaching post of 2Cor4. 4:6 is the causal statement for 4:5 not the solution for 4:3-4. Hearing and learning and believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ Lord 4:5 is the solution for some. Others don't believe 4:3-4.

 

[Magenta]

Again, quite wrong. Summon all your cognitive strength while praying for the tradition-based veil to be removed:

NET 2 Cor. 4:3-4 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they would not see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God.

• In those who are perishing
  • The Gospel is veiled
  • The god of that era has blinded their minds
  • They do not believe

Irrespective of what you allege, some turn and some don't turn. The blinded ones who don't turn are above described.

This is your failure in connecting the grammar of 2Cor4:6 properly. You highlighted that failure in your original teaching post of 2Cor4. 4:6 is the causal statement for 4:5 not the solution for 4:3-4. Hearing and learning and believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ Lord 4:5 is the solution for some. Others don't believe 4:3-4.

You were once a child of wrath. You too were blinded and under the influence of the evil one despite your pathetic objections.

 

[PaulThomson]

No, I'm not arguing that! But you were arguing that very thing with your lame analogy, i.e. most gifts are physically and consciously received. But this isn't the case with Spiritual Life! We no more choose to be born from above than we chose to be born here below.

Actually, if you study obstetrics a little, you will find that it is the baby that initiates labour, not the mother, by secreting a particular protein.

Healthy Birth Practice #1: Let Labor Begin on Its Own - PMC
National Institutes of Health (NIH) (.gov)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › articles › PMC4235056

"Many scientists now believe that it is the baby who initiates the labor process. When all the baby’s organs are fully mature and the baby is ready for life outside the uterus, he releases a small amount of a protein that initiates labor in the mother (Condon, Pancharatnam, Faust, & Mendelson, 2004). This does not happen until critical growth and maturation take place in the baby’s brain and lungs during the last weeks of pregnancy.

When all the baby’s organs including the baby’s brain, which grows dramatically in the last weeks of pregnancy, and the late-maturing fetal lungs are fully mature and the baby is ready for life outside the uterus, the baby releases a small amount of a protein which initiates labor in the mother."​

"by D Amis · 2014 · Cited by 53 — When all the baby's organs are fully mature and the baby is ready for life outside the uterus, he releases a small amount of a protein that initiates labor in ..."

So your parable of babies not choosing to be born seems a little bit ill-informed. And if the mother's body does most of the preparatory work in childbirth, but the baby in a natural birth plays a small causative role as well, one could be excused for inferring that, although the Holy Sprit does most of the preparatory work in bring a sinner to the new birth, the lost sinner plays a small causative role in his or her own spiritual birth by secreting a little faith into the process when they are ready.

 

[Rufus]

@Rufus re: 2Cor4:6 - God shining the light of the deity of Jesus Christ:

A few Scriptures to consider re: Paul and the light:

NKJ Acts 13:47 "For so the Lord has commanded us: 'I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
The Lord had commanded Paul (and Barnabas) - the Lord had placed them for a light of nations/gentiles - for them to be for Salvation as far as the farthest boundaries of the land
Paul is a light for the Salvation for the Gentiles
NKJ Acts 22:6 "Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me.
A considerable light from Heaven shined (periastrapt?) around Paul
NKJ Acts 22:9 "And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me.
Those with Paul saw (theaomai) the light
NKJ Acts 22:11 "And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.
From the results of the glory of that light Paul was not seeing [well]
NKJ Acts 26:13 "at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me.
Paul explaining the light
NKJ Acts26:14-18 "And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' 15 "So I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 'But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 'I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 'to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'
Please pay attention here:
The Lord:
Makes Paul a minister (same language as 2Cor3-4) and witness to both things he's seen and things the Lord will reveal to him later
Consider the light God had shone to Paul and Timoty over time re: the deity of Jesus Christ per 2Cor3:18 & 4:6.
Sends Paul to the Gentiles:
To open (anoig?) their eyes for this purpose:
To turn-hupostreph? (active)
from darkness into light
namely from the authority of Satan to [the authority] of God
For this purpose:
To receive release from their sins
And a share among the men who have been sanctified
by faith into Jesus
NKJ Acts 26:22-23 "Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come-- "that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles."
Paul was witnessing nothing besides what the prophets and Moses said was about to come
This is important for what Paul is saying in 2Cor3

Jesus Christ placed Paul to be the light for Salvation for the Gentiles

Jesus Christ made Paul a minister/servant to witness what he saw and would see from the Lord

Jesus Christ sent Paul to open the eyes of the Gentiles, so the Gentiles could turn (think of 2Cor3:16) from darkness (Satan's authority) to light (God's authority), so the Gentiles could receive release from their sins, and an inheritance among the sanctified by faith in Jesus.

Paul was witnessing nothing but what the prophets and Moses said was about to come


These same things re: light and ministry in Acts are in Paul's and Timothy's words in 2Cor.


Again, you are obliterating the power of God's Word to save people. Men's thinking is still being blinded and becoming hardened. God's Word being proclaimed and explained by His people so men can turn to the Lord combined with the Lord the Spirit convincing men of sin, righteousness & judgment is the power God has initiated in the world to save men.

You write an awful lot to state elementary truth in the NT. Yes, God did indeed call Paul to be an apostle to the Gentiles. And how does that differ so much from today when there are literally tens of thousands upon tens of thousands (if not more!) who have received the call to go out and minister full time to the lost in the world armed now with the entire canon of scripture!? (In fact, everyone has this call to some extent even though most Christians are not called into full time ministry!) And since Timothy, and quite likely Silas as well (and perhaps even Barnabas, cf. Act 14:14), received this internal light of the glory of God in their souls (very likely when they were converted), then there is no compelling reason to believe that this Light was just a one-time, special deal with this trio or others. Or the Glory that has disappeared under the Old Covenant has also vanished under this New Covenant (with Paul's death?). One of the major reasons that the NC is so markedly superior to the Old is because its promises and benefits are eternal! Everything under the NC is permanent, invisible and internal, save for the final phase of the elect's salvation at the Parousia! Since the saints will literally be basking in God's majestic and indescribable Glory for all eternity, what would make you think for a nanosecond that God's glorious light isn't already in the souls of all his saints in this age?


Finally, I don't obliterate the power of God's Word to save people. If any of us has a lopsided or extreme view of God's power to save, it would be FWs like yourself because you virtually ignore the Holy Spirit's vital role in salvation. In fact, in chapter 3 alone, I believe the Spirit is mentioned seven times in that short chapter! Paul didn't teach that God shined the Gospel into people's hearts, or that he shined his Word into their hearts. Rather, God MADE his LIGHT shine into hearts. He did this by the Holy Spirit who is the Light of Life -- who HIMSELF is Light! That efficacious, supernatural act by God drove the darkness out of men's hearts so that they would be able to respond positively to the Gospel. Even in the creation analogy Paul gives in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit in Gen 1 was just as instrumental in shining Light into the world as God's command (Word) was!

 

[Rufus]

Actually, if you study obstetrics a little, you will find that it is the baby that initiates labour, not the mother, by secreting a particular protein.

Healthy Birth Practice #1: Let Labor Begin on Its Own - PMC
National Institutes of Health (NIH) (.gov)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › articles › PMC4235056

"Many scientists now believe that it is the baby who initiates the labor process. When all the baby’s organs are fully mature and the baby is ready for life outside the uterus, he releases a small amount of a protein that initiates labor in the mother (Condon, Pancharatnam, Faust, & Mendelson, 2004). This does not happen until critical growth and maturation take place in the baby’s brain and lungs during the last weeks of pregnancy.

When all the baby’s organs including the baby’s brain, which grows dramatically in the last weeks of pregnancy, and the late-maturing fetal lungs are fully mature and the baby is ready for life outside the uterus, the baby releases a small amount of a protein which initiates labor in the mother."​

"by D Amis · 2014 · Cited by 53 — When all the baby's organs are fully mature and the baby is ready for life outside the uterus, he releases a small amount of a protein that initiates labor in ..."

So your parable of babies not choosing to be born seems a little bit ill-informed. And if the mother's body does most of the preparatory work in childbirth, but the baby in a natural birth plays a small causative role as well, one could be excused for inferring that, although the Holy Sprit does most of the preparatory work in bring a sinner to the new birth, the lost sinner plays a small causative role in his or her own spiritual birth by secreting a little faith into the process when they are ready.

Yeah...okay. Man's fallible science is now the final authority of scripture. Why am I not surprised?

BTW, when Baby Jane Doe releases that small amount of protein that initiates labor, did she do that consciously? Was that a conscious, deliberate, premeditated decision on her part? Or if this is true, why couldn't it be a result of a God-ordained, natural biological process?

 

[PaulThomson]

Yeah...okay. Man's fallible science is now the final authority of scripture. Why am I not surprised?

BTW, when Baby Jane Doe releases that small amount of protein that initiates labor, did she do that consciously? Was that a conscious, deliberate, premeditated decision on her part? Or if this is true, why couldn't it be a result of a God-ordained, natural biological process?

YOU chose the analogy of childbirth. Now you want to argue against it, because it does not support your absolutist ideological position.

I am trusting that although you yourself are convinced you are spiritually minded and have the divine decoder ring that unlocks the true message of the Bible, other readers of this thread can recognise the huge flaws in your logic and hermeneutic that being exposed, and that are needed to get someone to swallow your ideological but unbiblical take on scripture. I am not really expecting to convince you of anything. But I hope a candid comparison between our two approaches to interpreting scripture might keep some from falling into that pit with you.

 

[studier]

The Holy Spirit didn't inspire the scriptures sloppily or in some haphazard fashion.

Several of us agree and wish you'd realize this.

The order of words and phrases in scripture is very important; for they very often sometimes reveal a logical or chronological sequence.

FTFY.

As I've said many times, the structure of our Text is routinely not what our western minds see as typical. There are threads within threads and outlining methods and structures that we just do not use.

I went to a beautiful stringed quartet concert in a small venue with nice acoustics recently. While listening, eyes closed, I was unusually zoned in and considering the wonders of our Creator and the physics and the notes and the math and the structures and the harmonies, etc., He has made available to us. My thoughts went to the correlations of these things to His Word we study with cultural ways of thinking apart from the Hebrew base. It has been said that ancient rabbis saw 10 dimensions in the Torah and that some believed the design of the universe is in Torah. Fanciful thinking or just insights we Gentiles have set aside in favor of the Greco-Roman ways of thinking many of us stem from?

You've accused me of the old angels dancing on a pin concept. You have no clue where I go in thought in appreciating the mind of the One who inspired His Word for us. As with the rest of Creation, we're still just scratching the surface of what's in His Word.

And just because "sanctification" can mean something different doesn't mean that in this passage it can't mean what it typically means and how it's most often understood, i.e. set apart.

That's why I said "can". I at times try to reveal options and am open to discussion when I show there are options. Would you like to focus and discuss all the ways we can deal with those verses? Do you have an open enough mind and ability to consider all the options?

The concept of being set apart runs throughout scripture and fits with all the other processes associated with salvation.

The concept is also stated in noun form as well as in verbal form. Run a search on the forms. Start with the noun forms in the Thess letters. Consider the range of use of the word.

Additionally, I've known for some time, as have others I've spoken with and read, that "spirit" is a word that still needs some sorting out in Scripture. There are times when Spirit seems very likely that it should rather be spirit.

Again, if you want to discuss these concepts in detail it is going to require us to focus and to likely analyze a lot of Scripture. I can provide the verses a word is used in. I and one or a few others can delve into the language and grammatical structures. You will need a mind open to possibilities that are opposed to your tradition. All of us will need open-minded objectivity and we may get to the level you consider angels on a pin. You're going to have to be open to being wrong, just like the rest of us.

When the Father draws someone to the Son, he's drawing them from their old life to a new life that is to be found in the Son and appropriated by faith in Him.

Agree. And that drawing is teaching who the Son is, which some choose to accept, and others choose to reject. That teaching is the Gospel.

I just laid out a few points re: 2Thes that we all should deeply consider.

And, yes, the Gospel is the EXTERNAL call of the Gospel -- and this external call will always fall on deaf/dead ears unless it's accompanied by the internal, effectual call of the Spirit.

Unfortunately, you have presuppositions built into this, so it is preloaded with language and concepts that need to be drawn out and discussed for clarity of what you are actually saying. As we both know, it begins with a "T" that is in part built on an [erroneous] interpretation of 1Cor2:14. which I've been inserting information about in the 2Cor3-4 discussions.

 

[studier]

So your parable of babies not choosing to be born seems a little bit ill-informed. And if the mother's body does most of the preparatory work in childbirth, but the baby in a natural birth plays a small causative role as well, one could be excused for inferring that, although the Holy Sprit does most of the preparatory work in bring a sinner to the new birth, the lost sinner plays a small causative role in his or her own spiritual birth by secreting a little faith into the process when they are ready.

That's quite creative and an interesting parable to consider.

It seems to correlate with some of the things I just proposed as possible considerations for the language in 2Thess.

Thamks!

 

[PaulThomson]

That's why I said "can". I at times try to reveal options and am open to discussion when I show there are options. Would you like to focus and discuss all the ways we can deal with those verses? Do you have an open enough mind and ability to consider all the options?

It's quite shocking how few people have the level of interest in understanding what the Bible is saying, to be willing to consider all the options concerning what a biblical text could be saying.

 

[Jimbone]

It is pretty easy to discern the difference from a humble sinner that asked to be saved to a "woke up in the morning" saved individual.

What exactly do you mean by a "woke up saved" individual? You mean one that gives ALL the glory for their salvation to God and doesn't try to take credit for "their choice", as if they can boast about it? Are you saying it's more humble to think you played a part in that salvation than saying God did it all? To be honest I see things 180 degrees opposite as you do I think, but you are not very clear in what you mean exactly, so clear it up brother. I made the Choice you think is so humble and was NOT saved, even though people like you assured me I was FALSELY, but when I hit my knees in repentance He gave me having no clue what was going on, and "woke up saved the next day", I was saved in power and have been proclaiming that every day since then 12 years ago. NONE by my power or choice 10000% His power saved me. How you bragging about your choice is more humble in your head baffles me. I just don't understand your POV at all.

 

[HeIsHere]

It's quite shocking how few people have the level of interest in understanding what the Bible is saying, to be willing to consider all the options concerning what a biblical text could be saying.

It is called retro-fitting.

 

[PaulThomson]

What exactly do you mean by a "woke up saved" individual? You mean one that gives ALL the glory for their salvation to God and doesn't try to take credit for "their choice", as if they can boast about it? Are you saying it's more humble to think you played a part in that salvation than saying God did it all? To be honest I see things 180 degrees opposite as you do I think, but you are not very clear in what you mean exactly, so clear it up brother. I made the Choice you think is so humble and was NOT saved, even though people like you assured me I was FALSELY, but when I hit my knees in repentance He gave me having no clue what was going on, and "woke up saved the next day", I was saved in power and have been proclaiming that every day since then 12 years ago. NONE by my power or choice 10000% His power saved me. How you bragging about your choice is more humble in your head baffles me. I just don't understand your POV at all.

Well, how you bragging about your repentance is more humble in your head than my testifying that I believed the gospel and put my trust in Jesus, baffles me.

 

[studier]

You write an awful lot to state elementary truth in the NT. Yes, God did indeed call Paul to be an apostle to the Gentiles. And how does that differ so much from today when there are literally tens of thousands upon tens of thousands (if not more!) who have received the call to go out and minister full time to the lost in the world armed now with the entire canon of scripture!? (In fact, everyone has this call to some extent even though most Christians are not called into full time ministry!) And since Timothy, and quite likely Silas as well (and perhaps even Barnabas, cf. Act 14:14), received this internal light of the glory of God in their souls (very likely when they were converted), then there is no compelling reason to believe that this Light was just a one-time, special deal with this trio or others. Or the Glory that has disappeared under the Old Covenant has also vanished under this New Covenant (with Paul's death?). One of the major reasons that the NC is so markedly superior to the Old is because its promises and benefits are eternal! Everything under the NC is permanent, invisible and internal, save for the final phase of the elect's salvation at the Parousia! Since the saints will literally be basking in God's majestic and indescribable Glory for all eternity, what would make you think for a nanosecond that God's glorious light isn't already in the souls of all his saints in this age?


Finally, I don't obliterate the power of God's Word to save people. If any of us has a lopsided or extreme view of God's power to save, it would be FWs like yourself because you virtually ignore the Holy Spirit's vital role in salvation. In fact, in chapter 3 alone, I believe the Spirit is mentioned seven times in that short chapter! Paul didn't teach that God shined the Gospel into people's hearts, or that he shined his Word into their hearts. Rather, God MADE his LIGHT shine into hearts. He did this by the Holy Spirit who is the Light of Life -- who HIMSELF is Light! That efficacious, supernatural act by God drove the darkness out of men's hearts so that they would be able to respond positively to the Gospel. Even in the creation analogy Paul gives in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit in Gen 1 was just as instrumental in shining Light into the world as God's command (Word) was!

Your point(s) simplified please? You write an awful lot to say nothing or to hide one statement with any potential meaning.

You also consistently attempt to shade things I do point out (like the activity of the Spirit) and you misstate other things I do discuss. Honestly, it seems more and more that you're not very bright, or you read too quickly and miss many things, or your presuppositions have so blinded you that you cannot see let alone understand things, and it's obvious you're simply practiced in fallacious argumentation, ignoring, misleading, obfuscation, and such unproductive things.

So, that said, got Scripture?

Pick out something simple, a verse in context, something you consider low-hanging fruit you think your tradition has nailed down and let's get into it as deeply as you are able remaining in close context apart from all your typical tactics and present it. From what I've seen you'll soon scramble back to your tactics. For example, I've yet to see you respond or respond in any detail to what you purposefully left out in2Cor3 about men who actively turn to the Lord.

 

[rogerg]

Again, quite wrong. Summon all your cognitive strength while praying for the tradition-based veil to be removed:

NET 2 Cor. 4:3-4 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they would not see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God.

• In those who are perishing
  • The Gospel is veiled
  • The god of that era has blinded their minds
  • They do not believe

Irrespective of what you allege, some turn and some don't turn. The blinded ones who don't turn are above described.

This is your failure in connecting the grammar of 2Cor4:6 properly. You highlighted that failure in your original teaching post of 2Cor4. 4:6 is the causal statement for 4:5 not the solution for 4:3-4. Hearing and learning and believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ Lord 4:5 is the solution for some. Others don't believe 4:3-4.

[Jhn 12:37, 39-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: ...
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[studier]

It's quite shocking how few people have the level of interest in understanding what the Bible is saying, to be willing to consider all the options concerning what a biblical text could be saying.

On the one hand I in essence so agree. On the other hand, people including if not especially professing Christians, don't shock me that much anymore if at all. It just is.

Thanks for being someone who is still digging out the treasure. Thankfully God still has His who are doing this at varying level around this globe.

 

[studier]

[Jhn 12:37, 39-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: ...
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Different than or along the same course as what I posted from 2Cor4?

And if you keep going in John12:

NET John12:42-43 Nevertheless, even among the rulers many believed in him, but because of the Pharisees they would not confess Jesus to be the Christ, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue. 41 Isaiah said these things because he saw Christ's glory, and spoke about him. 43 For they loved praise from men more than praise from God.

Much here to unravel, but Scripture is consistent. Some don't believe. Some do believe.