The book of Job, my favorite book.

homwardbound · Feb 7, 2025

Only my Father and the risen Son Jesus can answer that. God just loves you and everyone else too. Get past the accusing and excusing attitude please
God simply loves us all. thank you
I can not answer to anyone's choice. Everyone's choice is between God and themselves above everything else. Love from PaPa to you given through Son as risen for you too

tttallison · Feb 8, 2025

Mem said:

Sorry I didn't respond to this earlier.

In My Opinion the time frame is future because the eyes of the Jews have not been opened yet. This would be centered on Ezekiel 37, where the resurrection of the Jews occurs. This resurrection occurs immediately after the Millennium.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:5 are of those that reign with Christ during the Millennium. The rest of the dead occurs immediately after the Millennium and includes those dead bones of Israel.

Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Do a study of Ezekiel 36-39 and compare with Revelation 20.

GWH · Feb 8, 2025

homwardbound said:

The answer of Jesus (JN 8) and Paul (RM 10) is that anti-Christians are atheists.

jacko · Feb 8, 2025

tttallison said:

You are absolutely correct that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. But I do not see where these Jews are in Christ.

The first time the New Covenant is mentioned is in Jeremiah 31:31. There is no mention of Gentiles in this passage. Only the house of Judah and the house of Israel are mentioned. The Northern Kingdom and the Southern Kingdom. This new covenant states that God will put, in Israel, his law in the inward parts, and write it in the hearts, and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This same passage is repeated in Hebrews 8:10-11.

To fully understand that this particular covenant pertains to Israel and not the Gentiles we read Romans 11:25-28.

Rom 11:25-28 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

When it says, "For this is my covenant unto them" in Romans 11:27 the "them" is referring to the blinded, unsaved Israel. This is referring to a future time after the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. At least that is what it says here in Romans 11.

Nah.. I’m sticking with the tried and true ABC ever little children know.

GWH · Feb 9, 2025

jacko said:

Re "The first time the New Covenant is mentioned is in Jeremiah 31:31. There is no mention of Gentiles in this passage." (ttallison)

Actually, the first time the NC is mentioned is in IS 42:6, "...I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles."

The first time the NC is implied is in GN 12:3, "...all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

And the first time the NC is foreshadowed is in GN 3:21&26, "The Lord God [shed blood and] made garments of skin for Adam and his wife... and he placed on the East side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way [Way] to the tree of life [salvation]."

homwardbound · Feb 9, 2025

jacko said:

for all know, what is right and what s wrong within themselves, true thank you

christophernyc · Feb 28, 2025

tttallison said:

Yeah, Elihu says those things. Since Elihu has been listening to the entire conversation between Job and his friends, Elihu is privy to all of this information. Job 33:7 is not the only time Elihu regurgitates what Job or his friends have said. Elihu certainly hijacks other people's ideas, but that does not prove him to be sent by God.

Again, Elihu is the only one who affirms Elihu. He also claims of himself to be "perfect in knowledge". Consider applying the "braggadocious" characterization to him.

christophernyc · Feb 28, 2025

Anyway, I am not sure we will agree about how to interpret this book. That's okay. I considered your arguments and I found them thoughtful and compelling even. Thank you for the banter, I found it very insightful.

Ultimately, here are a few reasons why I do not agree with your assessment:

1. You've claimed Job does not say anything correct until the end of the story in chapter 42. However, the form of how the story is written is also important in interpreting it. Hebrew poetry is written in chiastic structure, which makes chapter 28 the fulcrum of this book. It has the punch line for the whole thing, namely, "Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding." (Job 28:28). This whole speech is clearly attributed to Job as part of his speech. To say Job has said nothing correct until chapter 42 is quite scandalous.

2. Similarly, when challenging Elihu's speech, your defense was asking how God could then allow all of Elihu's speeches in Scripture. Why would God allow him to speak that much if he was wrong? That was essentially what I understood you to say. However, this logic was not equally applied to Job, was it? Job speaks far more than Elihu in this story, and yet you claim that Job does not say anything correct until the end of the story in chapter 42. So which is it? The logic does not comport.

3. I have more, but I'll end with this one about Elihu. In Job 35:5-8 Elihu says, "Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds which are higher than thou. If thou sinnest, what doest thou against him? or if thy transgressions be multiplied, what doest thou unto him? If thou be righteous, what givest thou him? or what receiveth he of thine hand? Thy wickedness may hurt a man as thou art; and thy righteousness may profit the son of man."

I find this statement by Elihu to be utterly anathema to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Why? Because it is ignorant of the price that was paid to reconcile man to God, namely the death of God's Son, Jesus Christ. Consider Isaiah 53:5, which I (like many others) view as a description of the Messiah and His purpose in suffering. It reads, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

So if you believe Isaiah 53:5 points to Jesus Christ and His suffering, you can see how our sin affects God. Elihu asks, "If thy transgressions be multiplied, what does thou unto Him?" Well, according to Isaiah, He was wounded for our transgressions. He was bruised for our iniquities. How do our sins affect God? Well, as a result of our sin, God chose to sacrifice His only begotten innocent, blameless Son. There was no other higher cost or price paid more than that one. Ever.

Elihu is completely and utterly out of touch with God, no matter how much he *claims* to be. He only serves as a bombastic, arrogant, legalist devastatingly divorced from the Good News.

But thank you again for your thoughts and explanations. One thing I do believe we agree on is that Job endures a transformation and ends up closer to God than he was before his ordeal. Wish you the best!

CM

homwardbound · Feb 28, 2025

christophernyc said:

man thinks he knows right from wrong and through life experiences has decided so.
Each, having different thought(s) than another. Wars have come and continue to come and get the best of each of us
Which besets us all in worry and worry places us out of sync with Father and Son, at least that got done to me and so see new now standing in trust to Father and Son as won for me to not worry or fear over anything anymore going on presently, past or future
That is the rest Father calls us all, at least me to be in Hebrews 4 I think for each to see for themselves as well thank you

christophernyc · Feb 28, 2025

tttallison said:

Sorry, don't think I followed up with your question here. I think you are talking about something different than what I was talking about. My point is not to challenge the inspiration of Paul's writings. Not sure how you jumped to that track exactly.

The distinction is God's point of view of a person compared with a man's point of view of a person. I would argue God has a better point of view than a man. Would you agree? So the point is that Paul calling himself blameless is a man's point of view. Maybe Paul was simply righteous in his own eyes. Is there a verse in Scripture where God also calls Paul "blameless"? Maybe I missed it, but can you point me to one?

But when it comes to God's opinion of a man, I would argue it is irrefutably right. So for me, when God says that Job is blameless it is significantly different than Paul referring to himself as blameless. Even if Paul was utterly blameless, the distinction is that the point of view of the one saying it is a difference worthy of consideration.

homwardbound · Mar 1, 2025

christophernyc said:

Phil 3 is where Paul talks about being blameless under Law, and did better than anyone else, under Law as in context this was for those under Law themselves , thinking they got it together and Paul stay he more so, then the message continued read it from verse 1 please through verse 20 at least in context
Paul never called himself righteous, except when he was under Law and killed people over it, he was righteous under Law, yet saw to give it all up to win Christ, let go of under Law to uphold Law as good
Hope to have helped my two cents

christophernyc · Monday at 12:57 PM

homwardbound said:

I understand your point, and I would agree. At the same time, this is a side issue to me regarding a discussion of the book of Job. Paul was brought up by tttallison (Terry?) within the discussion of Job being "blameless" as God points out at the beginning of the story.

homwardbound · Monday at 1:33 PM

christophernyc said:

thanks, I see God said this to Satan in Job 1, look at my servant Job
What did Satan say back to God. No wonder you have got a hedge built around him. Let him go through troubles and Job will deny you!

Job, through the entire story of Job refused to deny God ,while in troubles, even to his own wife who was fed up, said to Job, curse God and die. Job said no way and would not
Now, fast forward to today, are you seeing you as a Job? Are you, have you gone through troubles too? If do will you deny God, Peter did and then changed his mind when saw the risen Christ to report to us in his epistles written. Peter was/ and is forgiven all past sin remains forgiven from God Father by Son's done work once for us all The very moment it is past, how fast is any sin past? Peter saw,. even though he did deny knowing Christ/ All sin is forgiven but Not believing God, the Holy Spirit here as if the wind, that began at Pentecost, is what is done for us to see and choose to believe or not personally between God and you too. (Romans 8:15-16).
Do you see Paul stating he had been shipwrecked, rejected, snake bitten and even in jail and still remained to not deny God!
The Jail help saw him not complain and continue to praise God. As Paul when was Saul saw Stephan go to his death willingly being stoned to death, right in front of him. Then the road to Damascus.
What a change, yes. did he depend on himself anymore or Father alone in risen Son given him to see new? now this be passed onto us all people to choose, with no more sin in the way as was before Christ did his done work first.

Do you now see, this be for each person too from God and no one else? I stand in belief that is truth for us all to not deny God at all, even though many times there is the thought time of to deny God, over troubles going on. Or as well as when in thought I am doing well, and think hey I deserve better, I am behaving really?
Pride and quilt I am revealed Father and Son hate as we can see the love of God in 1 Cor 13:4-7 to ask for the imputation of that love and mercy to be given us.
We do not do the work, God does it through me at least, desiring for the next willing person to ask to and be new too in love and mercy to all, not a few Anymore

christophernyc · Monday at 4:15 PM

I see the person of Job as a prophetic picture of Jesus Christ, specifically during His trial and His suffering. Job is not Jesus, of course, but Job and his ordeal provide a type and shadow of our Savior and what He would later endure. I don't believe Job never sinned, but it seems explicitly clear in the beginning that Job's ordeal does not occur because of anything he had done wrong. Does that mean Job never sinned ever in his life? No, I don't believe that. But again, it is clear in the text that Job's suffering in this particular ordeal is without cause and not because of anything he had done wrong.

Unrelated to that point, I also see Job as a picture of the persecuted Church in the end times. Jesus said that if they persecuted Him, the world will persecute his followers as well.

christophernyc · Tuesday at 9:49 AM

tttallison said:

Sorry, this idea that Job and his wife lost their children due to Job's pride is just outrageous. What a distortion of the text. Did you notice that Job's wife is not opposing him because of his sin? She does not blame Job for the loss of their children. No, she is opposing him because Job is maintaining his integrity and *not* sinning by cursing God.

Question: can you point out 1 place in the text where it says Job is suffering due to his pride? Can you? It appears you have married your mind to this idea, but it is appears as nothing but an extra textual invention on your part. Please point to a verse that levels this accusation against him. Does God ever say make this same accusation against Job?

homwardbound · Tuesday at 12:10 PM

christophernyc said:

The part about Job to realize he needs God and is not perfect is when God said to Job, Did you make the whirlwind, I think that began around Chapter 32 of Job
It is when Job was tired of those that kept accusing Job of sin, that being the reason he was going through Troubles. And was telling them this Was not going on because of sin. I get that, yet we as people, do not get that, at least for a while I did not get that, until Daddy, PaPa, Father revealed this to me.
I tell you the truth, you will have troubles here in this world, But do not fear, I have overcome the world for you. That had to get done first and is done by Son once for us all (John 19:30, Hebrews 10:10), before any new life could ever get installed in anyone that believe God over self thought(s) and anyone else also (Phil 3)
It is not a matter, a thought of sin or even doing sin or not as is taught in religion. It is a a fact Jesus did take away all sin (John 1:29) at that cross for us to cross over with him in his resurrection and be made new from Daddy's gift given us, new in love and mercy to all as is done for us to begin with, done on that cross
Believe God in this, rest from this world, self-works and then see you doing new work, that is not new it is the done work of Son for us all to be new by Faith alone, which true done work then follows, thank you

christophernyc · Wednesday at 12:43 PM

Also, if you can see Job as a prophetic picture of the persecuted Church in the end times, you could also see Elihu as the antichrist. In the book of Revelation, who comes to power before Jesus returns? Answer: the antichrist. In the book of Job, who comes to the forefront and takes over before God appears to Job in the whirlwind? Answer: Elihu. Who leads the world in persecuting the Church in the end times? Answer: the antichrist. Who blatantly opposes, oppresses and accuses Job without mercy in the book of Job? Answer: Elihu.

Job provides a clear depiction of Jesus Christ.
Elihu provides a clear picture of the antichrist.

NOV25 · Wednesday at 1:39 PM

christophernyc said:

You need to be careful what charismatic quack pot YouTube channels you’re watching bubba…

Elihu answered Job and the three the same way God did, essentially a foreshadowing if you will.

In other words, you’re attributing that which was said in Spirit by Elihu, the only man in the group God does not rebuke, to be that of satan.

christophernyc · Thursday at 9:08 AM

NOV25 said:

YouTube is not my source. Perhaps you are more familiar with the kind of channels there you mentioned. Is there a link to one you can provide as reference? Also, who's bubba?

Elihu speaks to Job in harsh statements. (Remember, it says explicitly 4 times in the text that Elihu is *angry*. By the way, imagine being counseled by someone full of anger.) Did you notice that God speaks to Job with questions? Questions provide grace. God speaks to Job in a totally different way than Elihu. Also, nowhere does it say that God is angry with Job. But in case I missed it, can you please provide that verse? So Elihu's approach and attitude toward Job is totally different than God's approach and attitude toward Job. This is just one difference among others.

Secondly, Elihu is the only one who affirms Elihu. Did you notice that? God affirms Job both at the beginning of the story and also at the end of the story. Can you show us where God affirms Elihu anywhere? Yes, Elihu *claims* to speak for God. However, have you ever wondered why Elihu would need to speak for God if God Himself is going to show up and speak to Job directly? In your opinion, why would you say this foreshadowing (as you call it) is necessary?

Finally, how do you know Elihu is even there when God shows up to speak to Job? We know Job and his friends are there at the end, but why do you believe Elihu is even present? What is your basis for that point of view?

Thank you for your comments. I did not unpack a lot here, but there are more posts earlier on in this chat if you're interested. Thanks again.

NOV25 · Thursday at 10:54 AM

christophernyc said:

YouTube is not my source. Perhaps you are more familiar with the kind of channels there you mentioned. Is there a link to one you can provide as reference? Also, who's bubba?

Elihu speaks to Job in harsh statements. (Remember, it says explicitly 4 times in the text that Elihu is *angry*. By the way, imagine being counseled by someone full of anger.) Did you notice that God speaks to Job with questions? Questions provide grace. God speaks to Job in a totally different way than Elihu. Also, nowhere does it say that God is angry with Job. But in case I missed it, can you please provide that verse? So Elihu's approach and attitude toward Job is totally different than God's approach and attitude toward Job. This is just one difference among others.

Secondly, Elihu is the only one who affirms Elihu. Did you notice that? God affirms Job both at the beginning of the story and also at the end of the story. Can you show us where God affirms Elihu anywhere? Yes, Elihu *claims* to speak for God. However, have you ever wondered why Elihu would need to speak for God if God Himself is going to show up and speak to Job directly? In your opinion, why would you say this foreshadowing (as you call it) is necessary?

Finally, how do you know Elihu is even there when God shows up to speak to Job? We know Job and his friends are there at the end, but why do you believe Elihu is even present? What is your basis for that point of view?

Thank you for your comments. I did not unpack a lot here, but there are more posts earlier on in this chat if you're interested. Thanks again.

You’re claiming Elihu is an agent of satan which is upside down and backwards from reality. In other words, your comprehension, your vision, your claim is of the opposite spirit, it is antichrist-much like the Pharisees in Matthew 12:24

Final warning from me bubba

The book of Job, my favorite book.

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