The book of Job, my favorite book.

christophernyc · Mar 20, 2025

What is also curious is how some are ready to defend and justify this claim Elihu makes about himself. Elihu seems to get full support from some people. However, when Job is called righteous and blameless *by God* Himself, those same people infuse that statement to mean Job is actually full of pride somehow. They take what God clearly says and try and make it mean the opposite. (If someone is full of pride, they are not blameless, and they do not fear God.)

I've seen many times where people give credit to Elihu which should apply to Job. Then they give criticism to Job which actually applies to Elihu. Totally backwards and in direct contradiction to what is written in the text.

christophernyc · Mar 20, 2025

PaulThomson said:

Thank you. Yes, I agree with you. In fact, when looking at and studying Elihu, it took time to come to a conclusion about him. He is obviously written in a mysterious way with an introduction any first-time reader would be surprised by. I think it's by design that his character is meant to provoke thought and study. (I wrote about this before in another post, too.)

One of my unanswered questions about Elihu is if others have considered him in a different way. I did. It took time. But I have not seen one other person who supports him say that they considered another interpretation of him. Is there anyone who has? I've not see any yes or no to this question, curiously.

So to your point, yes, we need to keep an open mind and listen to other perspectives. What I found with Elihu are some real problems, and that is what I am trying to bring to light.

PaulThomson · Mar 20, 2025

christophernyc said:

Job passed the test, in that, although under pressure he impugned God, in the end he repented and spoke truly of God and was restored to right relationship of trust with God. He cleared satan's bar, but not God's bar, and yet God showed Himself merciful and kind by forgiving the repentant Job.

PaulThomson · Mar 20, 2025

christophernyc said:

It is a common figure of speech to claim to understand perfectly, meaning that one feels they have a healthy and realistic graspof an issue, and not meaning that one believes they possess omniscience. How many times have you said, "I understand perfectl..." Or "I understand exactly... " ? And how many times did that mean a claim to God-like omniscience?

PaulThomson · Mar 20, 2025

christophernyc said:

I believe I have been considering your arguments for your alternative view on Elihu, and engaging with them in a reasonable fashion. What in Elihu's speech impugns God? Satan impugned God's character to Eve. Satan impugned God's character in Job ch. 1 & 2. Hiw did Elihu impugn God's character?

christophernyc · Mar 21, 2025

PaulThomson said:

Do you believe God brought evil on Job?

christophernyc · Mar 21, 2025

PaulThomson said:

Where does Elihu impugn God's character? That is a very good question. I don't think Elihu impugns God's character outright at all. He does say seemingly logical and "right" things about God, but there are other factors about him to consider when evaluating him as a whole. Also consider this verse from Isaiah 29 "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men."

It does seem clear that Elihu wants to impugn Job's character, however. This is where we really need to look at what Elihu is saying and why. It's not just what's on the surface (his words, for example) but what is his motivation? What is he ultimately wanting? He *says* he wants to justify Job, but I don't see any grace extended to Job at all. And who appointed him to be the one to justify Job anyway?

But let's look at something concrete. In Job 34:12 Elihu says, "Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment." Interestingly, Bildad asks the same thing in 8:3, "Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?" But I thought Elihu said he wasn't going to use any of their arguments? And there are many instances where we see Elihu hijacking thoughts and ideas from Job and his friends from their conversation.

Anyway, the main point for 34:12 is a "right" statement about God. However, did God allow Job to suffer unjustly? What we find in Job 2:3 is God saying, "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause." The *without cause* is important to point out. God is acknowledging there was no real reason to allow Job to suffer this ordeal.

This is a unique story. Does God always go around inflicting evil on people? No, I do not believe that. But in this story, that appears to be what is happening based on what is written. Is Elihu "correct" in what he says about God? Sure. But he is using this argument and defense of God in a context that is unlike most any other contexts. Additionally, my suspicion is that Elihu is doing this on purpose, too, but that is another conversation.

christophernyc · Mar 21, 2025

PaulThomson said:

I see your point, and I would not disagree with the basic idea you are expressing. If Elihu had just said that he understands and is here to help, that would be one thing. What I see, however, is how Elihu describing himself in the exact same way with the exact same words when referring to God. When he describes his knowledge as "perfect" and God's knowledge as "perfect" it seems he is directly equating himself with God here. It smells of pride.

Compare that to how Job is responding. He is consistently asking God for answers, and even asking God to show him what sin he has committed. Some people give Job a bad wrap saying he is full of pride, but do proud people actively seek God and ask Him to show them their sin as Job does? This strikes me as humility on Job's part.

Something else to consider is Elihu appointing himself to defend God's character. Does God really need Elihu to defend His character? Besides, God Himself does show up and reveal Himself to Job at the end.

PaulThomson · Mar 21, 2025

christophernyc said:

No. Satan did evil to Job.

christophernyc · Mar 21, 2025

PaulThomson said:

So you disagree with this verse from Job 42:11?

11Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

PaulThomson · Mar 22, 2025

christophernyc said:

Job 42:11
Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had had brought (HeBiY": Hiphil perfective) upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

The hiphil is a causative verb form. It ascribes some causative power to the subject to have the action occur. It distances the subject from doing the action themselves.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mea...&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&safe=active&ssui=on

In the context of Biblical Hebrew grammar, the Hiphil form, or Hiphil stem, generally indicates causative action, meaning the verb expresses the subject as causing or bringing about the action of the verb's root.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

Causative Action:
The Hiphil stem is often used to express that the subject is causing something to happen, or bringing about a result related to the root verb's meaning.
Examples:
- The Qal (basic) verb "to eat" (אכל) becomes "to cause to eat" or "to feed" (אכיל) in the Hiphil.
- The Qal verb "to come" (בא) becomes "to bring" or "to cause to come" (בא) in the Hiphil. "

Clearly, causing someone to eat is not shoving food down their throat, but providing food that they choose to eat. I can provide food but the person may choose not to eat. If they eat, then I fed them. If they do not eat, I did not feed them.

We see from the narrative how it was that God had some hand in the evil brought upon Job. He provided the opportunity for satan to bring evil upon Job. He allowed satan previously denied access to Job. Because satan chose to take advantage of the opening, God is described as "having the evil brought upon Job. Had satan not bothered, we would not have the evil happening and we would not have God described as "having had all the evil brought upon Job".

I would agree that this is how "God had had brought upon Job all the evil", but not that this was how "God had brought upon Job all the evil."

NOV25 · Mar 25, 2025

Elihu begins a line of questioning and God answers Job the same way-a continuation if you will.

Job 37:14-24

[14] “Hear this, O Job;
stop and consider the wondrous works of God.
[15] Do you know how God lays his command upon them
and causes the lightning of his cloud to shine?
[16] Do you know the balancings of the clouds,
the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge,
[17] you whose garments are hot
when the earth is still because of the south wind?
[18] Can you, like him, spread out the skies,
hard as a cast metal mirror?
[19] Teach us what we shall say to him;
we cannot draw up our case because of darkness.
[20] Shall it be told him that I would speak?
Did a man ever wish that he would be swallowed up?
[21] “And now no one looks on the light
when it is bright in the skies,
when the wind has passed and cleared them.
[22] Out of the north comes golden splendor;
God is clothed with awesome majesty.
[23] The Almighty—we cannot find him;
he is great in power;
justice and abundant righteousness he will not violate.
[24] Therefore men fear him;
he does not regard any who are wise in their own conceit.”

Job 38:1-3

The LORD Answers Job

[1] Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:

[2] “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?

[3] Dress for action like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.

——

Very interesting that Job has 3 friends who clearly do not know God but one who clearly does. Is there a lesson in this? Does God provide for those he’s seeking, a minority who speaks truth amongst the majority of liars, a sheep amongst the wolves? It would seem so.

If Elihu is a minority of truth, an ambassador of Christ, what does it say about those who claim the opposite, that he speaks for satan?

You cannot hear me because I tell you the truth…

christophernyc · Mar 27, 2025

PaulThomson said:

OK but God does still bear responsibility in the fact that evil came upon Job, no? You say "God had some hand in the evil brought on Job." Do you believe God is the most powerful entity in this story? Do you believe everything is under His control here?

Also remember, Job 2:3 where God says, "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."

In God's words here, the conflict is described as God moving against Job. Of course we know satan is involved. Nobody is disputing that, but according to the story, God is the one opposing Job. I might add, God Himself says He is opposing Job *without cause*.

So if you zoom out and look at the whole story, what Job says during his trial *is* correct. The friends cannot accept that God would cause this, and Elihu certainly does not either. And yet, both at the beginning and the end of the story we have evidence that that is exactly what has happened here. This also comports with the fact that God Himself says Job has spoken rightly of Him (God) and Job's friends have not.

christophernyc · Mar 27, 2025

NOV25 said:

Elihu begins a line of questioning and God answers Job the same way-a continuation if you will.

Job 37:14-24

[14] “Hear this, O Job;
stop and consider the wondrous works of God.
[15] Do you know how God lays his command upon them
and causes the lightning of his cloud to shine?
[16] Do you know the balancings of the clouds,
the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge,
[17] you whose garments are hot
when the earth is still because of the south wind?
[18] Can you, like him, spread out the skies,
hard as a cast metal mirror?
[19] Teach us what we shall say to him;
we cannot draw up our case because of darkness.
[20] Shall it be told him that I would speak?
Did a man ever wish that he would be swallowed up?
[21] “And now no one looks on the light
when it is bright in the skies,
when the wind has passed and cleared them.
[22] Out of the north comes golden splendor;
God is clothed with awesome majesty.
[23] The Almighty—we cannot find him;
he is great in power;
justice and abundant righteousness he will not violate.
[24] Therefore men fear him;
he does not regard any who are wise in their own conceit.”

Job 38:1-3

The LORD Answers Job

[1] Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:

[2] “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?

[3] Dress for action like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.

——

Very interesting that Job has 3 friends who clearly do not know God but one who clearly does. Is there a lesson in this? Does God provide for those he’s seeking, a minority who speaks truth amongst the majority of liars, a sheep amongst the wolves? It would seem so.

If Elihu is a minority of truth, an ambassador of Christ, what does it say about those who claim the opposite, that he speaks for satan?

You cannot hear me because I tell you the truth…

Where does it say Elihu is a "friend" of Job, as you claim?

PaulThomson · Mar 27, 2025

christophernyc said:

Job 2:3
¶
And the LORD said to Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one fearing God, and eschewing evil? and still he ( וְעֹדֶנּוּ ), causing to hold fast ( מַחֲזִיק , M-KhaZiQ, with-causing to hold fast, hiphil/causative, participle active m. s. absolute ) in his integrity ( בְּתֻמָּתוֹ , B-TheMaTh-U, in-noun common f. s. abolute-masc. suffix), although you caused me to instigate/move ( וַתְּסִיתֵנִי , Wa-ThMiYTheNiY and-hiphil/causative sequential 2nd person m. s. - 1st pers. s. suffix) against him, ( בוֹ , B-oW) to destroy him ( לְבַלְּעוֹ , L-BaL"U , for- piel infinitive construct- m. s suffix) without cause ( חִנָּם , HiNaM )

And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one fearing God, and eschewing evil? and still he, causing to hold fast in his integrity, although you caused me to move against him, [for you] to destroy him without cause.

God is saying that satan, by issuing his slanderous accusations against God and Job, had caused/moved God to lift his hand of protection form Job, which was a move against Job in a sense, because it had left Job vulnerable to attack by the devil, even though God did not actively harm ob in any way. Satan had moved God to remove Job's defences so that satan could destroy Job without cause., not do that Gid could destroy Job without cause.

The story does not say that God is the one opposing Job. The story says that satan is the one opposing Job, and God who had been protecting Job, removed the fortifications around Job at satan's request, so that satan could follow through on his evil plans for Job, if satan decided to go through with those plans, which he did.

christophernyc · Sunday at 7:10 PM

PaulThomson said:

We are essentially in agreement, I believe. God removes the barrier of protection and satan uses this opening to attack Job. I think we both believe this is what happens in the story.

At the same time, God knows that when He lifts this barrier of protection, that satan *will* attack Job. It's not a matter of *if* satan will attack or that satan *might* attack. God knows satan *will* attack. This is also confirmed by the fact that God was clear to draw limits to how much satan could attack. (First time he could not touch Job's person, and the second time satan could not kill Job.)

That said, in effect, God is allowing Himself to be in opposition to Job. God is allowing satan to attack "without cause", and these attacks are not the direct result of something Job has done to warrant them. I do not believe God necessarily wanted Job to suffer just for the sake of it. But as we read, God did allow it, and I believe that was for a higher purpose. (In a previous post, I stated that Job's ordeal disproves satan's accusation against God, and it proves that God's relationship with His creation is not merely transactional.)

I had asked if you believed God is the most powerful entity in the story. Do you believe He is? I also asked if you believe everything is still under His (God's) control here? I am asking those again here. What do you believe?

As for me, I believe God is the most powerful entity in this story, and I believe God is in control in this situation. Following that belief, I would also state God could have stopped Job's suffering and the attacks at any time. However, God does not do it right away, but removes Himself from protecting and communing with Job, which is why Job keeps crying out to Him. Eventually, God does stop Job's suffering when He shows up in the whirlwind, but for a time, God stepped back from Job and allowed him to suffer his ordeal.

I don't believe any of us like the idea that God would allow Job's ordeal to happen to anyone. But it makes sense why Job would cry out the way he does and say the things he has said. This would comport then why God Himself states that Job has spoken rightly about Him (God) in chapter 42.

PaulThomson · Sunday at 7:35 PM

christophernyc said:

I believe that the account of Job's flawed attempt to maintain his integrity under undeserved exposure to Satan's attacks and the unwise advice of his friends, helped Jesus to avoid the same mistakes Job made when the hedge was lifted around Jesus and he was placed under undeserved trial. Job's trials help us get saved by helping to equip Jesus to remain sinless until death.

christophernyc · Monday at 11:06 AM

PaulThomson said:

I agree with so much of what you have said here. Thank you for pointing this to Jesus, which is what drove my deep dive into this book in the first place. I think it's important to find places where we can agree, too, in the midst of our opposing opinions.

I would not characterize Job's attempt to maintain his integrity as flawed, necessarily. As you and I already agreed, Job does pass the test. He does not curse God as satan claimed Job would. Even when Job has the chance to do it when God shows up, Job does not do it. satan claimed Job would curse God to His face, but when Job sees God directly with his eye, he refrains from cursing God.

What is particularly significant in the parallel between Job and Jesus is how both Jesus and Job cry out to God. On the Cross, Jesus cries out, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" This is effectively the *same* cry of Job to God, albeit Job's cry is more drawn out over the course of the story. Both Jesus and Job are experiencing the same thing in their relationship with God.

My argument is that the story of Job points to Jesus, specifically during the time of Jesus' suffering. There are many characters in the OT that provide an example of who Jesus is. The clincher is Jesus Himself making this point when He states in John 5:39 "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." According to what Jesus says, I believe it is imperative to read the OT Scripture through this lens and seeing how they reveal the character of Jesus Christ to us.

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The book of Job, my favorite book.

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