Grace

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Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#21
“Our basic difference is that you believe obedience is necessary in order to be saved,

whereas I believe obedience is the result of salvation.”

Yes that’s why I quoted those scriptures . to show you why biblically I believe that those who don’t obey the gospel won’t be saved.

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬



And yes that seems to be your position or one of them . That if a person is already saved , they’ll then be able to hear and believe the gospel….

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

V go preach the gospel to everyone if they are saved already they’ll believe and let you baptized them in my name . And if they are already damned , tbeyll
Not be able to hear believe and be saved .
To be clear, I don't believe that someone is saved before hearing the gospel. I believe the word of God and the Spirit of God are vital to salvation. When Jesus is speaking with Nicodemus in John 3:5 and says that an individual must be born of water and the Spirit, I believe water there is the gospel.
But again, you read the statement...everyone who believes and is baptized shall be saved as causal. If one believes and gets baptized, then the result is salvation. To me it is merely a statement of truth. In other words, when the gospel is shared, there are 2 outcomes. The first is that people get saved, and this is evidenced through faith and obedience. A second outcome is that people do not get saved, and thus do not believe.

If, in fact, salvation is of grace, and the individual does not contribute to their salvation, I don't see how believing and getting baptized, or any other requirement for salvation falls under grace and not works.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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#22
seeing to stay dressed ready in season and out of season, to give and account for the Joy of the Lord given me, even if in dire straights
Kind of like Paul, when was in prison. He saw contentment to rejoice no matter what. The Jail help saw this as well, and therefore asked How? Paul able to tell them it is the risen Jesus that saves. That be where I see Paul's continued talk was at. As we have people today, bouncing in and out of salvation mixing things up, a before the cross and after the cross, being confused, whether these admit to this or not it is happening to many a people. It definitely happened to me
Now seeing this A before the cross and an after the cross, the resurrection of Jesus for us to be new in love to all
So I look for context in scripture when read, am I reading before or after the resurrection?

trusting Father to rightly divide truth over error(s) as I have had many and still today am in. process, thanking Father no matter what, listening to learn truth over errors in this world
Thanks for the post reply
Father teaches , I see no one else does that truthfully
“Kind of like Paul, “

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭11:1‬ ‭

“I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:3-5‬ ‭NIV‬‬


“ Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭3:4-15‬ ‭NIV‬‬

pauls life was dedicated to living the gospel and following the Will of the lord he’s a good mentor to have
 
Feb 22, 2021
3,316
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#23
Grace?

Alone saves? Of course not:

"...By GRACE Are ye Saved...For By GRACE Are ye Saved Through faith..."
(Ephesians 2:5, 8-9 cp Romans 3-5; Titus 3:4-7 AV)​
Obedience to "works"?? Of course not, men Are always 'striving' to Cancel
God's UNmerited Favor = GRACE:

"And if By Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise Grace is no more Grace.​
But if it be of works, then is it no more Grace: otherwise work is no more work."​
(Romans 11:6 AV)​

Thus, men Also Cancel Out Christ's ALL-Sufficient Work On The Cross!:

For God's Eternal Salvation!

God's Grace, Peace, Mercy, and Love!

God Teaches "works" Are For "rewards At The Judgment Seat Of Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV)

Amen.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#24
To be clear, I don't believe that someone is saved before hearing the gospel. I believe the word of God and the Spirit of God are vital to salvation. When Jesus is speaking with Nicodemus in John 3:5 and says that an individual must be born of water and the Spirit, I believe water there is the gospel.
But again, you read the statement...everyone who believes and is baptized shall be saved as causal. If one believes and gets baptized, then the result is salvation. To me it is merely a statement of truth. In other words, when the gospel is shared, there are 2 outcomes. The first is that people get saved, and this is evidenced through faith and obedience. A second outcome is that people do not get saved, and thus do not believe.

If, in fact, salvation is of grace, and the individual does not contribute to their salvation, I don't see how believing and getting baptized, or any other requirement for salvation falls under grace and not works.
“But again, you read the statement...everyone who believes and is baptized shall be saved as causal. If one believes and gets baptized, then the result is salvation. “

right but id say “if one hears the gospel and believes and responds in that belief getting baptized in his name then they now have a promise from Jesus saying “ they shall be saved “

That’s how faith works you have to hear what God said and believe him and then you act upon the true belief .

For instance these men heard this from an apostle after having heard a summary of the gospel

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ( the choice we make )

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( the result ) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter was trying to convince them or pursuade them and they received peters words and gladly were baptized …..

thats faith you hear something and if it’s important and you believe what’s said your going to act the only reason they would have gotten baptized is they heard Jesus promise held by the gospem of remission of sins …..

they acted because they believed peters preaching he pursuaded them

And they They acted in faith . That’s all baptism is you hear what it is and what it means in the Bible and then you’re going to act and get baptized because of what you know it means …but if you think we’ll that “Bible explaination of baptism is all wrong it doesn’t mean anything “ then getting baptism isn’t an act of faith because you don’t even realize your doing it for a reason built upon faith



But believing isn’t a one time thing it’s a lifetime walk and we grow from babes to adults. Babes are saved also but the fourty year olds aren’t babes that suckle anymore either they have to mature or wither on the vine
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#25
“But again, you read the statement...everyone who believes and is baptized shall be saved as causal. If one believes and gets baptized, then the result is salvation. “

right but id say “if one hears the gospel and believes and responds in that belief getting baptized in his name then they now have a promise from Jesus saying “ they shall be saved “

That’s how faith works you have to hear what God said and believe him and then you act upon the true belief .

For instance these men heard this from an apostle after having heard a summary of the gospel

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ( the choice we make )

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( the result ) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter was trying to convince them or pursuade them and they received peters words and gladly were baptized …..

thats faith you hear something and if it’s important and you believe what’s said your going to act the only reason they would have gotten baptized is they heard Jesus promise held by the gospem of remission of sins …..

they acted because they believed peters preaching he pursuaded them

And they They acted in faith . That’s all baptism is you hear what it is and what it means in the Bible and then you’re going to act and get baptized because of what you know it means …but if you think we’ll that “Bible explaination of baptism is all wrong it doesn’t mean anything “ then getting baptism isn’t an act of faith because you don’t even realize your doing it for a reason built upon faith



But believing isn’t a one time thing it’s a lifetime walk and we grow from babes to adults. Babes are saved also but the fourty year olds aren’t babes that suckle anymore either they have to mature or wither on the vine
What do you think it means that faith comes by hearing?
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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#26
What do you think it means that faith comes by hearing?
I think what it’s saying in that chapter that verse comes out of . the gospel has to be preached to someone before they can hear it and either believe or not believe . If you had never heard the information in the gospel about Jesus dying for your sins and being raised up again you couldn’t believe that , it would be something you hadn’t heard of . So he sent out witnesses to preach it so people could hear and believe and call upon the name of Jesus and be saved read the sections brother

You can’t believe a message of you have never heard the message. Once a person hears the gospel something like this even just a word of the gospel

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Now a person that has never heard this statement can believe it or they can reject it but there’s faith in the statement of believed or rejected
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#28
I think what it’s saying in that chapter that verse comes out of . the gospel has to be preached to someone before they can hear it and either believe or not believe . If you had never heard the information in the gospel about Jesus dying for your sins and being raised up again you couldn’t believe that , it would be something you hadn’t heard of . So he sent out witnesses to preach it so people could hear and believe and call upon the name of Jesus and be saved read the sections brother

You can’t believe a message of you have never heard the message. Once a person hears the gospel something like this even just a word of the gospel

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Now a person that has never heard this statement can believe it or they can reject it but there’s faith in the statement of believed or rejected
I agree that someone cannot believe something that has never been considered. I would suggest that more is being taught that simply this. If faith comes by hearing, then hearing is the source of faith.
So then, where does hearing come from?
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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#30
I agree that someone cannot believe something that has never been considered. I would suggest that more is being taught that simply this. If faith comes by hearing, then hearing is the source of faith.
So then, where does hearing come from?
How do you hear what people say here ? Same thing it’s just hearing . He spoke the gospel and said believe it . How did cain hear him ? God spoke to him.

Cain heard him but didn’t obey he chose to make his own path forward and solve his issue his way rather than Gods and killed his little brother

“And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?

and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; when thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It isnt that cain is unable to hear Gods word But it’s that cain hears Gods word and will for him …..and he rejects that wisdom from God and instead decided his own course of action which was to kill his righteous brother.

God didn’t ordain cain to kill abel cain did that because he rejected Gods guidance and leading to repent and do what is right.

But then later consider Noah . god decides to destroy all he had created because it’s become corrupt and wicked by the tenth generation . But he gives grace to noah who’s a good guy and a righteous fellow who knows and is known by God he walks with the lord.

so what does God do ? He speaks to Noah and tells Noah what will save him from his situation like he did cain . He tells him imna flood and destroy everyone and everything but you build an ark as I command you and fill it and enter into it when I command you and I’ll save you and your family from the flood that’s coming . Noah like cain heard what he said because he said it . But unlike cain Noah believed what God said and acted upon it he didn’t choose a different path like cain his own design and thinking Noah believed the lord and so he acted upon what he told him and was an hier of the righteousness of faith like we are .

By faith Noah,

being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; ( God warned him of the flood and instructed him how to be saved and he believed and acted upon the belief of what God said )

by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

noah would t have known about the flood of Vid didn’t speak it but it was t magic he just told him about the flood and how to be saved ……Jesus tells us of a fiery end to come , and how to be saved from it .

will we believe it and actin faith like Noah ? Or will we reject his way and blaze our own path ? Faith is when we lay down our own thinking and follow Gods because we believe in and trust him with our souls. He will never teach us wrong or lead us astray

Cain heard God because God spoke that’s how we’ve all heard the gospel too . My own opinion as usual but one of mans functions is hearing words before jesus became a man we could t hear and k ow what he was saying but he became a man and spoke to us the words of God and just calls us to hear and believe . Not To first understand every word and then you’ll be saved …..but to hear it and believe in him and then continue on forward in faith jeering f and applying things tbat we do begin to grasp as we hear more and more in life and grow and persevere in his word

our place is to hear him , because we believe in him as we hear him , he begins to change our thinking I mean ….who’s going to argue with Jesus when it comes to salvation ? He’s the savior( not saying you are doing this or anything )
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#31
How do you hear what people say here ? Same thing it’s just hearing . He spoke the gospel and said believe it . How did cain hear him ? God spoke to him.

Cain heard him but didn’t obey he chose to make his own path forward and solve his issue his way rather than Gods and killed his little brother

“And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?

and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; when thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It isnt that cain is unable to hear Gods word But it’s that cain hears Gods word and will for him …..and he rejects that wisdom from God and instead decided his own course of action which was to kill his righteous brother.

God didn’t ordain cain to kill abel cain did that because he rejected Gods guidance and leading to repent and do what is right.

But then later consider Noah . god decides to destroy all he had created because it’s become corrupt and wicked by the tenth generation . But he gives grace to noah who’s a good guy and a righteous fellow who knows and is known by God he walks with the lord.

so what does God do ? He speaks to Noah and tells Noah what will save him from his situation like he did cain . He tells him imna flood and destroy everyone and everything but you build an ark as I command you and fill it and enter into it when I command you and I’ll save you and your family from the flood that’s coming . Noah like cain heard what he said because he said it . But unlike cain Noah believed what God said and acted upon it he didn’t choose a different path like cain his own design and thinking Noah believed the lord and so he acted upon what he told him and was an hier of the righteousness of faith like we are .

By faith Noah,

being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; ( God warned him of the flood and instructed him how to be saved and he believed and acted upon the belief of what God said )

by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

noah would t have known about the flood of Vid didn’t speak it but it was t magic he just told him about the flood and how to be saved ……Jesus tells us of a fiery end to come , and how to be saved from it .

will we believe it and actin faith like Noah ? Or will we reject his way and blaze our own path ? Faith is when we lay down our own thinking and follow Gods because we believe in and trust him with our souls. He will never teach us wrong or lead us astray

Cain heard God because God spoke that’s how we’ve all heard the gospel too . My own opinion as usual but one of mans functions is hearing words before jesus became a man we could t hear and k ow what he was saying but he became a man and spoke to us the words of God and just calls us to hear and believe . Not To first understand every word and then you’ll be saved …..but to hear it and believe in him and then continue on forward in faith jeering f and applying things tbat we do begin to grasp as we hear more and more in life and grow and persevere in his word

our place is to hear him , because we believe in him as we hear him , he begins to change our thinking I mean ….who’s going to argue with Jesus when it comes to salvation ? He’s the savior( not saying you are doing this or anything )
So if simply hearing is all that is involved, why isn't everyone who hears the gospel saved? Either faith doesn't always come by hearing or hearing is more than simply hearing the gospel audibly.
 
Jan 27, 2025
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#32
While Jesus is the author of eternal life to all who obey Him, this doesn't condition salvation upon obedience. Rather, it merely stipulates that obedience is characteristic of believers. And why wouldn't it be. Someone who has been born from above, had their heart circumcised, and become a partaker of the divine nature seems to be a great candidate for obedience.
It is a condition. What will come of those who do NOT obey? If a Christian quits obeying, will they be saved? If you say they were never a Christian, then why weren’t they? Based off your reasoning, it will be because they weren’t “born from above, had their heart circumcised, and become a partake of the divine nature” to make them a great candidate for obedience. So, when one is born from above, etc etc, are they disobeying Jesus or does it just happen without them wanting it to happen or without them knowing? Suppose you yourself quit obeying, would you be saved? Or would you refer to yourself to be “never saved to begin with”? All of that implies that in order to be saved, (or in order not to be considered “never saved” to begin with) you would be having to obey. Thus, your own statement proves that is a condition upon obedience, as if one doesn’t have the characteristics of obedience, they’d not either be saved or never be saved.
 
Jan 27, 2025
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#33
While Jesus is the author of eternal life to all who obey Him, this doesn't condition salvation upon obedience. Rather, it merely stipulates that obedience is characteristic of believers. And why wouldn't it be. Someone who has been born from above, had their heart circumcised, and become a partaker of the divine nature seems to be a great candidate for obedience.
True or False: One must be born again to be saved.
True or False: One must believe to be saved.
True or False: One must continue in His word to be saved.
True or False: One must follow Jesus to be saved.
True or False: One must have faith to be saved.
True or False: One must walk in the light.
True or False: Being born again is disobeying Jesus.
True or False: Believing in Jesus is disobeying Jesus.
True or False: Continuing in His word is disobeying Jesus.
True or False: Following Jesus is disobeying Jesus.
True or False: Having faith is disobeying Jesus.
True or False: Walking in the light is disobeying Jesus.

If you answer True to any of the first six, then you are making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you answer False, to any of the last, then you are making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you say that a Christian is going to obey Jesus because they are saved, then you are still making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you say those who do not obey were never saved, then you are still making obedience a condition for salvation.

So, no matter how you slice it, you are left with obedience as a condition for salvation.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#34
It is a condition. What will come of those who do NOT obey? If a Christian quits obeying, will they be saved? If you say they were never a Christian, then why weren’t they? Based off your reasoning, it will be because they weren’t “born from above, had their heart circumcised, and become a partake of the divine nature” to make them a great candidate for obedience. So, when one is born from above, etc etc, are they disobeying Jesus or does it just happen without them wanting it to happen or without them knowing? Suppose you yourself quit obeying, would you be saved? Or would you refer to yourself to be “never saved to begin with”? All of that implies that in order to be saved, (or in order not to be considered “never saved” to begin with) you would be having to obey. Thus, your own statement proves that is a condition upon obedience, as if one doesn’t have the characteristics of obedience, they’d not either be saved or never be saved.
I don't really understand your logic. If obedience is a prerequisite for salvation, how is salvation not due to your obedience? If so, how then is salvation of grace?
Having obedience as a result of salvation and not its cause is the only way salvation is of grace.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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#35
How do you hear what people say here ? Same thing it’s just hearing . He spoke the gospel and said believe it . How did cain hear him ? God spoke to him.

Cain heard him but didn’t obey he chose to make his own path forward and solve his issue his way rather than Gods and killed his little brother

“And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?

and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; when thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It isnt that cain is unable to hear Gods word But it’s that cain hears Gods word and will for him …..and he rejects that wisdom from God and instead decided his own course of action which was to kill his righteous brother.

God didn’t ordain cain to kill abel cain did that because he rejected Gods guidance and leading to repent and do what is right.

But then later consider Noah . god decides to destroy all he had created because it’s become corrupt and wicked by the tenth generation . But he gives grace to noah who’s a good guy and a righteous fellow who knows and is known by God he walks with the lord.

so what does God do ? He speaks to Noah and tells Noah what will save him from his situation like he did cain . He tells him imna flood and destroy everyone and everything but you build an ark as I command you and fill it and enter into it when I command you and I’ll save you and your family from the flood that’s coming . Noah like cain heard what he said because he said it . But unlike cain Noah believed what God said and acted upon it he didn’t choose a different path like cain his own design and thinking Noah believed the lord and so he acted upon what he told him and was an hier of the righteousness of faith like we are .

By faith Noah,

being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; ( God warned him of the flood and instructed him how to be saved and he believed and acted upon the belief of what God said )

by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

noah would t have known about the flood of Vid didn’t speak it but it was t magic he just told him about the flood and how to be saved ……Jesus tells us of a fiery end to come , and how to be saved from it .

will we believe it and actin faith like Noah ? Or will we reject his way and blaze our own path ? Faith is when we lay down our own thinking and follow Gods because we believe in and trust him with our souls. He will never teach us wrong or lead us astray

Cain heard God because God spoke that’s how we’ve all heard the gospel too . My own opinion as usual but one of mans functions is hearing words before jesus became a man we could t hear and k ow what he was saying but he became a man and spoke to us the words of God and just calls us to hear and believe . Not To first understand every word and then you’ll be saved …..but to hear it and believe in him and then continue on forward in faith jeering f and applying things tbat we do begin to grasp as we hear more and more in life and grow and persevere in his word

our place is to hear him , because we believe in him as we hear him , he begins to change our thinking I mean ….who’s going to argue with Jesus when it comes to salvation ? He’s the savior( not saying you are doing this or anything )
This Gospel stuff is so complex and convoluted.........No one can hear and believe. Didn't cha know?
 
Feb 17, 2023
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#36
True or False: One must be born again to be saved.
True or False: One must believe to be saved.
True or False: One must continue in His word to be saved.
True or False: One must follow Jesus to be saved.
True or False: One must have faith to be saved.
True or False: One must walk in the light.
True or False: Being born again is disobeying Jesus.
True or False: Believing in Jesus is disobeying Jesus.
True or False: Continuing in His word is disobeying Jesus.
True or False: Following Jesus is disobeying Jesus.
True or False: Having faith is disobeying Jesus.
True or False: Walking in the light is disobeying Jesus.

If you answer True to any of the first six, then you are making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you answer False, to any of the last, then you are making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you say that a Christian is going to obey Jesus because they are saved, then you are still making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you say those who do not obey were never saved, then you are still making obedience a condition for salvation.

So, no matter how you slice it, you are left with obedience as a condition for salvation.

Just curious - what do you believe about obedience in the life of a Christian? Does it have its place in us at all? Can a real Christian continue to live unchanged?

Because when we get saved, God gives us His Holy Spirit, who is not only a seal over us to show we belong to Him, but whose purpose of living in us is to change us to increasingly become more obedient, increasingly sin less and increasingly grow to maturity to become more like our Lord Jesus.


🎯
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,733
7,086
113
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#37
True or False: One must be born again to be saved.
True or False: One must believe to be saved.
True or False: One must continue in His word to be saved.
True or False: One must follow Jesus to be saved.
True or False: One must have faith to be saved.
True or False: One must walk in the light.
True or False: Being born again is disobeying Jesus.
True or False: Believing in Jesus is disobeying Jesus.
True or False: Continuing in His word is disobeying Jesus.
True or False: Following Jesus is disobeying Jesus.
True or False: Having faith is disobeying Jesus.
True or False: Walking in the light is disobeying Jesus.

If you answer True to any of the first six, then you are making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you answer False, to any of the last, then you are making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you say that a Christian is going to obey Jesus because they are saved, then you are still making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you say those who do not obey were never saved, then you are still making obedience a condition for salvation.

So, no matter how you slice it, you are left with obedience as a condition for salvation.
Your logic is flawed. #1 is true. John 3 is clear: one cannot enter the kingdom of God unless they are born from above. All the rest are false. They are false because all are results of salvation or things subsequent to salvation.
How do you define grace?
How do you define works?
 
Jan 27, 2025
37
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#40
Can a Christian go to heaven without obedience? No.

If one says they were never a Christian, it will be because they aren’t living like one, thus, a condition has been set, and my point remains.

Take away any form of obedience to God…will someone be saved by His grace?

Surely you will say no, which goes back to my original point, or else it is universalism or Calvinism. Thus, a condition has been set to receive His amazing grace.

Take away His grace…will someone be saved by obedience? No. As no one can obey perfectly.

Thus, one must have obedience to God to receive His grace.

If one was to argue that obedience is the fruit of having salvation, then you still have made it a condition upon having fruit of salvation upon obedience, or else they’d have no evidence of having salvation.

So, once again, either way you slice it, you are left with obedience as a condition. Or else it’s universalism or Calvinism. Take your pick.