Why do some people believe and some do not?
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Is this precisely what you think is being presented as an alternative to your view - that God desires some to perish and actively prevents them from coming to repentance?
Same statement you made in the first paragraph. Do you think your view is the only coherent...view of what the Scripture means? Hopefully you'd admit it's not what the Scripture clearly says.
Same statement you made in the first paragraph. Do you think your view is the only coherent...view of what the Scripture means? Hopefully you'd admit it's not what the Scripture clearly says.
IMO God knows reality that nothing He can do because of who He is will change that heart. As I said to @GWH I think you're stuck on desire only being conformed to a concept of love when desire conforms to all attributes combined with omniscience. At some point judgment is made.
You probably also need to contend with verses like this:
You seem to be favoring one side of God. I don't think that's wise.
With all the good He gives us; there's clearly a point where He doesn't put up with the nonsense and He knows all the facts not to mention the end from the beginning. Why even posit what you're saying above?
You probably also need to contend with verses like this:
And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, (2 Tim. 2:24-25 NKJ)
NKJ Hebrews 6:1-6 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. (Rom. 11:22 NKJ)
You seem to be favoring one side of God. I don't think that's wise.
With all the good He gives us; there's clearly a point where He doesn't put up with the nonsense and He knows all the facts not to mention the end from the beginning. Why even posit what you're saying above?
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet. 3:9 NKJ)
A few comments:
A few comments:
- "willing" here is not the same word we see elsewhere for His will/desire. It carries the meaning of wishing/desiring with the implication of planning accordingly
- Carry this into the last clause and His desire/plan is for none to perish but to move/make progress for/into repentance.
- IOW, it seems (and I'm not taking much time here to look more closely) it seems to be more of a focus on His Plan of Salvation based upon His desire that all men be saved.
- He's being patient with us to play out His Plan.
- But patience ends - read 3:10.
- And along the way this does not negate anything some have said in disagreement with you about His hardening hearts in those continually disobedient people who He knows their end. Also, as I just pointed out with a few other Scriptures, He is the omniscient one who determines who advances in growth, comes to repentance to know Truth, and can deal kindly or severely with people's nonsense.
Good question. Read the account of Pharoah closely with an open mind. Then read Paul's commentary:
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, (Rom. 9:14-23 NKJ)
Why do you seem to have a problem with such things?
Speculation based upon reading Ex and Paul: Pharoah had been hardening his heart for however long. God willed that this hardened leader play a role in history at a time He chose. God makes Himself clearer through His people and puts open demands upon him. Pharoah hardens and Scripture says YHWH hardened him. Hebrew Scripture is referenced in 9:17 to state God's purpose. Paul pushes this a bit further in 9:22.
Apply the principles to teaching in parables and multitudes of human beings and find out how many "what if's" you can come up with as Paul is doing in 9:22. What role do hardened people play in their own demise and in their role to show the saved that there is truly a separation taking place in history? So many 'what's' we can probably throw at this.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, (Rom. 9:14-23 NKJ)
Why do you seem to have a problem with such things?
Speculation based upon reading Ex and Paul: Pharoah had been hardening his heart for however long. God willed that this hardened leader play a role in history at a time He chose. God makes Himself clearer through His people and puts open demands upon him. Pharoah hardens and Scripture says YHWH hardened him. Hebrew Scripture is referenced in 9:17 to state God's purpose. Paul pushes this a bit further in 9:22.
Apply the principles to teaching in parables and multitudes of human beings and find out how many "what if's" you can come up with as Paul is doing in 9:22. What role do hardened people play in their own demise and in their role to show the saved that there is truly a separation taking place in history? So many 'what's' we can probably throw at this.
I don't have a problem with Romans 9. I just understand it means something different from what you think it means. For instance, To me v. 22 means that maybe God gets angry with some people (vessels of wrath) and feels like smiting them, but puts up with them with longsuffering, so that they might have time to repent and some of them might become vessels of mercy upon whom He will make known the riches of His glory at the resurrection, after they have prepared themselves for glory by being disciples of Christ after their repentance.
Good...I think. But truth isn't decided by majority rule, salvation isn't determined by knowledge, and we aren't supposed to be divisive. Thus please be careful about having a humble and godly attitude on controversial issues when speaking with brothers and sisters in Christ.
Consider:
Romans 16:17-18 NIV
[17] I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. [18] For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.
1 Corinthians 4:6-7 HCSB
[6] Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the saying: “Nothing beyond what is written.” The purpose is that none of you will be inflated with pride in favor of one person over another. [7] For who makes you so superior? What do you have that you didn’t receive? If, in fact, you did receive it, why do you boast as if you hadn’t received it?
1 Corinthians 1:10-13 NIV
[10] I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. [11] My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. [12] What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.” [13] Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Corinthians 8:1-3 NIV
[1] Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. [2] Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. [3] But whoever loves God is known by God.
Consider:
Romans 16:17-18 NIV
[17] I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. [18] For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.
1 Corinthians 4:6-7 HCSB
[6] Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the saying: “Nothing beyond what is written.” The purpose is that none of you will be inflated with pride in favor of one person over another. [7] For who makes you so superior? What do you have that you didn’t receive? If, in fact, you did receive it, why do you boast as if you hadn’t received it?
1 Corinthians 1:10-13 NIV
[10] I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. [11] My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. [12] What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.” [13] Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Corinthians 8:1-3 NIV
[1] Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. [2] Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. [3] But whoever loves God is known by God.
Are you taking into account the context of Pharoah who God hardened and raised up for His glory? He used him to openly defeat him and display His wrath against him and his army.
When the scene gets to the sea it says God hardened the hearts of the Egyptians to follow Israel and they ended up in the sea where they all perished. This may have made Israel consider any necessary repentance but it hardly provided the same for those hardened Egyptians.
So, in the hardening episodes the focus is not on repentance. There's actually no mention of repentance in Rom9 and we'd have to import it from its only mention (?) in Rom2. In Rom9:22 your take seems to be your hope rather than how I've seen you work in Scripture. It looks to me to be clearly saying that God had been patiently putting up with vessels of wrath who had been (in the past and were at the time God made His wrath know with them - perfect tense) prepared for destruction. IOW they were prepared and awaiting wrath when God chose to exercise wrath. There's no hint of any potential repentance being awaited.
When the scene gets to the sea it says God hardened the hearts of the Egyptians to follow Israel and they ended up in the sea where they all perished. This may have made Israel consider any necessary repentance but it hardly provided the same for those hardened Egyptians.
So, in the hardening episodes the focus is not on repentance. There's actually no mention of repentance in Rom9 and we'd have to import it from its only mention (?) in Rom2. In Rom9:22 your take seems to be your hope rather than how I've seen you work in Scripture. It looks to me to be clearly saying that God had been patiently putting up with vessels of wrath who had been (in the past and were at the time God made His wrath know with them - perfect tense) prepared for destruction. IOW they were prepared and awaiting wrath when God chose to exercise wrath. There's no hint of any potential repentance being awaited.
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Agree re: majority. Knowledge is involved in salvation. Unfortunately division is part of Christendom, some division is appropriate, and you're part of and/or involved in the division the moment you voice your interpretation of Scripture on a forum like this. If you see me being ungodly please feel free to bring it to my attention.
Thanks for the Scriptures, especially for posting the Text and not just the verse references. I'm familiar with them and happy to discuss any up to a point.
Thanks for the Scriptures, especially for posting the Text and not just the verse references. I'm familiar with them and happy to discuss any up to a point.
that's an interesting perspective , i understand what you're saying 
reminds me of how He told Jeremiah, He would make him to this people a fortified bronze wall...
remember how, speaking about the salvation that was to come, He told Israel He would remove their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh - - it takes in this case God acting, affecting human will, to soften their hearts. without God actively intervening, the heart was hard.
effectively what pastor was saying was that human nature apart from God is hard-hear red toward Him, that it is His patient longsuffering and mercy towards us that facilitates our hearts turning towards Him.
He said, He will draw all to Him, if He is lifted up - and also, that those whom the Father draws to Him, come to Him. so if that drawing is removed, what does our heart do?
reminds me of how He told Jeremiah, He would make him to this people a fortified bronze wall...
remember how, speaking about the salvation that was to come, He told Israel He would remove their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh - - it takes in this case God acting, affecting human will, to soften their hearts. without God actively intervening, the heart was hard.
effectively what pastor was saying was that human nature apart from God is hard-hear red toward Him, that it is His patient longsuffering and mercy towards us that facilitates our hearts turning towards Him.
He said, He will draw all to Him, if He is lifted up - and also, that those whom the Father draws to Him, come to Him. so if that drawing is removed, what does our heart do?
@sawdust
Jeremiah 15:19-21
Therefore thus says the LORD:
"If you return,
Then I will bring you back;
You shall stand before Me;
If you take out the precious from the vile,
You shall be as My mouth.
Let them return to you,
But you must not return to them.
And I will make you to this people a fortified bronze wall;
And they will fight against you,
But they shall not prevail against you;
For I [am] with you to save you
And deliver you,"
says the LORD.
"I will deliver you from the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem you from the grip of the terrible."
Willing is always wishing and desiring. That's what thelO means: to will, want, desire.
Well, we would also disagree on whether scripture says God knows all the future, and knew it all before creating the world. That presupposition of yours is colouring your opinion on God's attitude to the unrepenting rebellious. Since I don't hold to that same presupposition, I am not obliged to accept the entailments of that presupposition.
Well, we would also disagree on whether scripture says God knows all the future, and knew it all before creating the world. That presupposition of yours is colouring your opinion on God's attitude to the unrepenting rebellious. Since I don't hold to that same presupposition, I am not obliged to accept the entailments of that presupposition.
If you read the story of Moses and pharaohj, you should be able to recognise that there was a to and fro in pharaoh between his heart softening and him repenting for a time because of God's actions (imposing a plague) , and his becoming belligerent against God in response to what God did (removing a plague and repeating His demand to let His people go). There are not one category of vessels who only get wrath and other category of vessels who only get mercy.
You seem to be interpreting God hardening someone as being by a different method that that by which I harden hearts. You seem to see God's method of hardening as He imposing hardness, rather than He making demand that are responded to with the person hardening their own heart. Both expressions can describe exactly the same event.
You seem to be interpreting God hardening someone as being by a different method that that by which I harden hearts. You seem to see God's method of hardening as He imposing hardness, rather than He making demand that are responded to with the person hardening their own heart. Both expressions can describe exactly the same event.