Understanding God’s election

[fredoheaven]

The earnest of the Spirit isn't the sealing. It is a confirmation of what has been done inwardly. The earnest is the indwelling Spirit that bears witness with our Spirit that we are indeed the child of God.
When John the Baptist said Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit, what was he referring to?

The word " and" refuted your claim that it only refer to the earnest which comes in the heart.

 

[Genez]

That's why faith and irrevocable Salvation are grace gifts from God.

This is the faith we were given to have....

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17​

But... when you asked a man in town for directions to get to a hardware store, what he told you, you accepted by faith as well,

In salvation, it is a matter of the content of that faith.
In salvation, what we believed became eternally existing.

 

[GWH]

I appreciate your humor, but don't understand a thing you just said.

I had in mind RM 8:9-11 and 1CR 12:13 to harmonize with EPH 1:13-14.

 

[Rufus]

Romans 12:3b Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you.

WHAT! God has GIVEN us a measure of faith! That's downright heretical. I own MY faith. It's mine. It was MY decision to believe. So...how is my faith not my own!? Paul screwed up!

 

[Cameron143]

The fulfillment of the water baptism was with the baptism of the Holy Sprit.

Mark 1:7-8
And he was preaching, and saying, “After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit
to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. I baptized you with water; but He will baptize
you with the Holy Spirit.”

What happened the day of Pentecost was the baptism of the Spirit. Jesus, at His water baptism experienced something similar. He was authenticated by God as His Son, and preeminent Servant. A significant difference was that the Spirit was in the form of a dove signifying His purity, while the disciples had cloves of fire, signaling their impurity.
The event also included speaking in tongues which was supernatural and was meant for further authentication. Signs and wonders continued throughout the lives of the disciples for the same purpose.
And you see similar events scattered throughout the book of Acts to authenticate that salvation has indeed occurred. This is what happened at Cornelius' house. Peter witnessed there what had occurred the day of Pentecost, knew God had saved them, and went straight to baptism.

 

[Cameron143]

The word " and" refuted your claim that it only refer to the earnest which comes in the heart.

And just means in addition to. I ran and I fell. Running and falling are 2 separate things.

 

[Rufus]

1 Corinthians 4:7b; John 3:27; Romans 9:15-16 What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did also receive it, why do you boast as not having received it? John replied, "A man can receive only that which is given him from heaven." "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

A great companion to that is found in John's Gospel:

John 5:21
21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
NIV

Lord willin' and the crik doesn't rise, I intend to elaborate on this text and other related passages because this particular text is devastating to FWT! How can the Son choose to whom he will give Life when life is an automatic God-ordained consequence of someone's faith and repentance, according to FWers? You believe and repent, you automatically receive eternal life.

 

[Rufus]

Do Calvinists have anything else they can discuss?

It's a one topic denomination.

Count yourself blessed. If it were anything more you'd likely run yourself off a cliff out of your frustration.

 

[Rufus]

What does this 'plainly' say?

Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood,​

you have no life in you. " John 6:53​

Plainly... your argument needs work.

You might wanna pay attention to the verb tenses before you bring further shame on yourself, Einstien!

 

[Cameron143]

I had in mind RM 8:9-11 and 1CR 12:13 to harmonize with EPH 1:13-14.

I don't believe 1 Corinthians 12:13 and Ephesians 1:13 are the same thing. One places the believer into Christ and the other affirms it to be so. One is the work of the Spirit and the other is the work of Christ employing the Holy Spirit. One is imperceptible because it is judicial in nature; the other is experiential.

 

[Magenta]

WHAT! God has GIVEN us a measure of faith! That's downright heretical. I own MY faith. It's
mine. It was MY decision to believe. So... how is my faith not my own!? Paul screwed up!

The natural man is blinded by the god of this world. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man is a lover of darkness. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man is a slave to sin. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
Devoid of faith, the natural man's righteous acts are like filthy rags. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man is captive to the will of the devil. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man is hostile in his mind toward God. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man suppresses the truth in unrighteousness. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man cannot receive the spiritual things of God. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man does not seek after God. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man cannot come to God on his own. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man hears the gospel as foolishness. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man is helpless and ungodly. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man is by nature a child of wrath. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man cannot submit to God's law. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man is dead in his sins. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man is in need of a spiritual rebirth. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man requires heart circumcision so he may love God. <= I wonder how many here deny that.

The Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that all (as natural men) are under the control of the evil one. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that we need to be rescued. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that man’s heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that man is born dead in transgression and sin. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that the natural man is held captive by a love for sin. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that the natural man will not seek God. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that the natural man loves the darkness. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that the natural man does not understand the things of God. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that the natural man suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that the natural man continues to willfully live in sin. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that the natural man's sinful lifestyle seems right to men. <= I wonder how many here deny that.

A great companion to that is found in John's Gospel:

John 5:21
21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
NIV

Lord willin' and the crik doesn't rise, I intend to elaborate on this text and other related passages because this particular text is devastating to FWT! How can the Son choose to whom he will give Life when life is an automatic God-ordained consequence of someone's faith and repentance, according to FWers? You believe and repent, you automatically receive eternal life.

Well, Paul identified himself as an apostle of Christ by God's will. He certainly did not take credit for the work God had done in him. And it is the will of God that people believe. Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent.” It was God's work in my life that engendered faith and belief in me. Left to my own devices I would have remained dead to Him and looking for something else...

 

[Genez]

Count yourself blessed. If it were anything more you'd likely run yourself off a cliff out of your frustration.

Yep... Calvinism is a one topic pony.
And, insulting when anyone may want to point them to consider the other 99.99% of the Bible.

We have no free will.

God chooses you as he taps you on your head with His magic wand to give you life,
because He is sovereign and can do da_n well as He pleases.

That sounds more like how Satan wishes he could do things.

 

[Genez]

You might wanna pay attention to the verb tenses before you bring further shame on yourself, Einstien!

What do any tenses have to do with literally eating his flesh and drinkling his blood have to do with it?

OK.... Explain what you see!
For I have no idea what you think you are seeing.

​

Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man ​

and drink his blood, you have no life in you. " John 6:53​

It is your game.... What are we supposed to do with his flesh and blood if taken plainly as stated?

And, something more accurately translated from the Greek, could read this way...

​

"Point of doctrine which I {Jesus} keep on saying to you . . .​

except {negative 3rd class condition} you eat the flesh ​

of the Son of Man, and drink His blood - maybe you will, ​

maybe you will not - you have no {eternal} life in you."​

Plainly speaking? How much is a pound of his flesh going for these days?

 

[HeIsHere]

Yep... Calvinism is a one topic pony.
And, insulting when anyone may want to point them to consider the other 99.99% of the Bible.

We have no free will.

God chooses you as he taps you on your head with His magic wand to give you life,
because He is sovereign and can do da_n well as He pleases.

That sounds more like how Satan wishes he could do things.

Seems every verse is used for "system" purposes.

 

[Rufus]

Yep... Calvinism is a one topic pony.
And, insulting when anyone may want to point them to consider the other 99.99% of the Bible.

We have no free will.

God chooses you as he taps you on your head with His magic wand to give you life,
because He is sovereign and can do da_n well as He pleases.

That sounds more like how Satan wishes he could do things.

Actually, it's a 5-topic pony. Your will is in bondage along with all your other faculties. So, you do have that right.

But now you mock God because he's not omnipotent? Does he perform black magic like Pharaoh's court magicians did?

And, yes, God can do as He pleases. The Potter has that right over his clay pots. It is his right to fix many that are broken, and his right to choose not fix and to discard the rest of the broken pots. That's exactly what happened at the Bronze Serpent incident. All the Jews were "broken", so he did away with the first group, while allowing the 2nd to live so that they could look to the raised serpent and stay alive after they were bitten.

So, explain to me, sir, how exactly does this make God unfair or unjust?

 

[Rufus]

What do any tenses have to do with literally eating his flesh and drinkling his blood have to do with it?

OK.... Explain what you see!
For I have no idea what you think you are seeing.

​

Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man ​

and drink his blood, you have no life in you. " John 6:53​

It is your game.... What are we supposed to do with his flesh and blood if taken plainly as stated?

And, something more accurately translated from the Greek, could read this way...

​

"Point of doctrine which I {Jesus} keep on saying to you . . .​

except {negative 3rd class condition} you eat the flesh ​

of the Son of Man, and drink His blood - maybe you will, ​

maybe you will not - you have no {eternal} life in you."​

Plainly speaking? How much is a pound of his flesh going for these days?

So Jesus was teaching cannibalism, was he? You take the eating and drinking literally, as any good die-hard Dispen would be disposed to doing?

 

[cv5]

Seems every verse is used for "system" purposes.

Like the penal system? You know.......dungeons, chains, misery. Typical Calvinite gear.

 

[cv5]

The Potter has that right over his clay pots. It is his right to fix many that are broken, and his right to choose not fix and to discard the rest of the broken pots. That's exactly what happened at the Bronze Serpent incident. All the Jews were "broken", so he did away with the first group, while allowing the 2nd to live so that they could look to the raised serpent and stay alive after they were bitten.

All of that has been thoroughly debunked buddy. Everything has. And yet the penal colony inmates rave on.

 

[cv5]

This is the faith we were given to have....

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17​

But... when you asked a man in town for directions to get to a hardware store, what he told you, you accepted by faith as well,

In salvation, it is a matter of the content of that faith.
In salvation, what we believed became eternally existing.

Somebody tell poor raving @Rufus that BELIEF always precedes FAITH.

https://christianchat.com/threads/understanding-god’s-election.216907/post-5435910

And that FAITH is an aspect of the utterly imperturbable failsafe WARRANTY provided for in the New Covenant.

Poor Calvinites. Their gimmicks have failed, their skullduggery exposed, and all that remains is apoplectic ranting.

 

[GWH]

I don't believe 1 Corinthians 12:13 and Ephesians 1:13 are the same thing. One places the believer into Christ and the other affirms it to be so. One is the work of the Spirit and the other is the work of Christ employing the Holy Spirit. One is imperceptible because it is judicial in nature; the other is experiential.

Well, I don't see any reason to think being baptized and being sealed by the HS are not the same event.