Understanding God’s election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jul 3, 2015
61,721
30,739
113

1 Corinthians 4:7b; John 3:27; Romans 9:15-16 What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did also receive it, why do you boast as not having received it? John replied, "A man can receive only that which is given him from heaven." "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
:)
 
Dec 7, 2024
413
148
43
It does indeed.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Out of context everything is possible, sadly, that poor boy by suffers each day because the absolute worst hermeneutics.
Indeed. This is why God's people stand and correct those who do not understand.

1 Corinthians 2: 14 The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The one who is spiritual discerns[j] all things, yet he himself is understood[k] by no one. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to advise him? But we have the mind of Christ.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
24,201
8,761
113
It does indeed.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Out of context everything is possible, sadly, that poor boy by suffers each day because the absolute worst hermeneutics.
Yep. One verse wonders these Calvinites.
And the thing is, the correct interpretation of that passage is OBVIOUS in full context.
 
Oct 19, 2024
2,215
534
113
BTW @Magenta , I could post 1000 more passages similarly.
And do you know what the Calvinites would do?
Waste 20 years desperately trying to figure out if the persons making these CHOICES were in the flesh or in the Spirit or saved or unsaved or regenerate or unregenerate or obedient or disobedient or whatever.

When it is OBVIOUS any such distinctions are IRRELEVANT.
Because it is also OBVIOUS that ALL ACTORS have FREE WILL and animate themselves accordingly.
Everybody. Including Jesus God and Satan.
Obvious to us; not to the oblivious. (cf. MT 13:14-15)
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
24,201
8,761
113
So...,you agree that it took a "genius" like myself to reveal the truth in God's Word that God detests both sin and the sinner alike. Congratulations. You're making progress.

P.S. By the way, the real "legend" around here is CV5 who once boasted how theologically studied up he is. So...if you're into legends, he's the guy who thinks he's the smartest person in room. A wise guy like you and an "Einstein" like he thinks he is, should get a long famously well.
Why is it that dumb PhD-less cavemen like me truly understand Scripture while Calvinites fail 99 times out of 100?

And what you cannot understand is that for me it is EFFORTLESS.
I have ZERO problems man. I read a passage and it links up INSTANTLY to the rest of the Bible and makes perfect sense in like SPLIT-SECONDS. Near instantaneously.

I do not need to read a library full of commentaries to "get it". I do not need a Phd in Greek or Hebrew to understand thought patterns, types and narratives. I do not need to study Church history for 3 years to find out where it all went wrong.

Not anymore. Lucky me huh?

Now....its up to you to face your problems. Because buddy, do you ever have problems.
 
Dec 7, 2024
413
148
43
Faith cannot be the antecedent of "that" (Ephesians 2:8) so faith is not the gift.
That statement misrepresents the Scriptures.
“By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Acts 11, 2 Timothy 2
 
Nov 21, 2020
6,602
617
113
However lovely a person might be, I cannot take bad advice to discard my God given logic from them. I'm too acquainted with well-intentioned congeniality lying to me, whether knowingly or otherwise.
Your logic clashes with the word of God, what's been revealed.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
6,611
2,624
113
That statement misrepresents the Scriptures.
“By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Acts 11, 2 Timothy 2
It really does not misrepresent scriptures, Greek is a gendered language.

The question becomes what does one do with something that contradicts what they have been taught? :unsure:
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,427
6,963
113
62
Oh the slight move of the hand again trying to making faith look like a work again........ sigh

The flesh does not prohibit man from the ability to believe in the life giving Good News of scripture, God's own call and appeal to all people.

Despite what Calvinists teach ......the Bible does not deny that faith is something humans can do.

Faith, from a biblical perspective, falls within the range of every human's capability: we all believe in something, and we all choose what to believe in.

John 10:37-30,

Jesus asks people who do not want to believe his words to believe in his works so they can believe in him!

37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” (John 10:37-30, ESV)
I'm doing no such thing. Your example actually makes my case. Or did everyone believe Jesus? Of course not. It wasn't their abilities or faculties that kept them from believing? It was their faith or lack of it.
Believing is indeed a work. John 6 makes this clear. What is the work of God? Believe. Saying believing is not a work contradicts the very words of Jesus.

Faith itself is a product of grace. It involves hearing which comes from the word of God. If hearing simply means physical hearing, everyone would have faith simply by listening to the word of God. Since everyone who physically hears the word of God does not believe, hearing must mean something more than simply hearing physically.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
24,201
8,761
113
It really does not misrepresent scriptures, Greek is a gendered language.

The question becomes what does one do with something that contradicts what they have been taught? :unsure:
[Eph 2:8 KJV]
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

[Eph 2:9 KJV]
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Looks like a contrast was set up here if you ask me. Faith vs works.
THEREFORE the "not of yourselves: the gift of God:" pointing to the "saved" makes the most sense here.


Have the Calvinites dropped the ball on this for the last 1600 years?
Could be. Probably. OK definitely.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,367
483
83
Faith always precedes verse 8 makes that very clear!
Plus we have entire bible that clearly teaches that faith precedes new life.
We also know that being dead does not mean inability.

The burden of proof is on you to produce just one clear biblical example of the term “DEAD” meaning “the moral incapacity to respond willingly to God from birth.”
Still waiting, what you are doing is presuming the meaning to fit your doctrine of regeneration preceding faith, a doctrine where faith really has no function.

Verse 8 makes it plain that "faith" has a very clear function in the process of salvation.
Cam is 100% right. The logical flow of Paul's teaching is that life in v.5 precedes faith in v.8. Not only that but the gift of life itself (spiritual resurrection) is a result of God's grace in the same v. 5. But even more than that resurrection life which is purely an act of God is equated to being saved! "It is by grace you have been saved". And this makes perfectly good sense since God rescued the helpless dead Ephesians and Paul from their spiritual tombs. The apostle John also makes this truth crystal clear when he wrote:

John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;
26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
NIV

In v. 26 life logically precedes faith!

And we saw this great truth illustrated in the Bronze Serpent typology in Num 21! The snakes bit many Jews and killed them before they had any chance to look to the raised bronze serpent. Only the remaining living Jews (the "elect") who were not bitten along with the first group had the opportunity to look to the serpent after they were also bitten (which proved there was no spiritual difference between the two groups). The second group, however, was graciously granted by God that small window of opportunity to look to the raised serpent to save themselves before they died from their bites-- an opportunity never afforded to the first group (non-elect) who were bitten. After all, isn't God the God of only the living and not the God of the dead (Mk 12:27)?

Common sense should tell everyone here that the DEAD have no ability to do anything! But clearly this very obvious truth has been hidden from many eyes -- even though you FWers have deceived yourselves into believing that you "see" (understand) God's Gospel Truth. But because you claim that you "see", your guilt remains (Jn 9:41).

Or again...you FWers can be compared to the church in Laodicea to wit:

Rev 3:14-17
14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: 15'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I would that you were cold or hot. 16'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17'Because you say , "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked...

NASB

Yes, you FWers think you are rich and wealthy and have need of nothing because your vaunted "free" will is your infallible guide, your savior, your spiritual counselor. I have taken charge of my life. I have made the smart decision. I have determined what my eternal destiny will be. I have raised myself up from the dead! My faith will save me. My freewill is the most valuable possession I have! I, I, I!!! My, My, My!

Wake up, O' sleepers, before it's too late!
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
24,201
8,761
113
And we saw this great truth illustrated in the Bronze Serpent typology in Num 21! The snakes bit many Jews and killed them before they had any chance to look to the raised bronze serpent. Only the remaining living Jews (the "elect") who were not bitten along with the first group had the opportunity to look to the serpent after they were also bitten (which proved there was no spiritual difference between the two groups). The second group, however, was graciously granted by God that small window of opportunity to look to the raised serpent to save themselves before they died from their bites-- an opportunity never afforded to the first group (non-elect) who were bitten. After all, isn't God the God of only the living and not the God of the dead (Mk 12:27)?
And there we go. The Calvinites have set up barbed wire, land mines, armed guards and a 50 foot wall around the Bronze Serpent.
This is the Calvinite way.

Fortunately, God says that access is FREELY available to ANY MAN.

[Num 21:8 KJV]
And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

[Num 21:9 KJV]
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
24,201
8,761
113
[Eph 2:8 KJV]
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

[Eph 2:9 KJV]
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Looks like a contrast was set up here if you ask me. Faith vs works.
THEREFORE the "not of yourselves: the gift of God:" pointing to the "saved" makes the most sense here.


Have the Calvinites dropped the ball on this for the last 1600 years?
Could be. Probably. OK definitely.
THEREFORE the "not of yourselves: the gift of God:" pointing (via the that G5124) to the "saved" makes the most sense here.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
24,201
8,761
113
Well if we're dead, we can't be blamed for what we do. ie, sinnin'. :cool:
To the Calvinites, being judged to damnation before creation and before any sin was ever committed is a workaround.
Yes, to the objective sane observer this makes matters worse, but Calvinites demand maximum absurdity to prop up their shibboleths.
 
Oct 19, 2024
2,215
534
113
THEREFORE the "not of yourselves: the gift of God:" pointing (via the that G5124) to the "saved" makes the most sense here.
Y’all would get a lot farther in this discussion if you would realize that grace means gift so you should use those terms synonymously, which means faith must refer to willingness to accept God’s grace/gift.
 
Feb 14, 2022
7
2
3
Houston Tx
I have not swamped the OP with a lot of Scripture quotations,
but hopefully you will recall the NT verses which confirm the following …


Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel

1 – Because of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve,
all humans are born with an inherited sin nature,
and are bent on sinning instead of following God (Romans 3:9-18).

Having a saving faith is against their very nature!

Without agreeing with the inherited sin part, I do agee this is true in the sense that sinners with lust in the heart, cannot have the faith of our Lord toward God, that is necessary to do His righteousness. Sinners with corrupt hearts of lust must repent of the sinful deeds, to have the heart circumciced from lust and recieve the righteous faith of Jesus Christ toward God, in order to do His will.

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Scripture reveals that sinful man by his own faith, cannot possibly do His righteousness and please Him. The only faith that pleases God is the faith of Jesus Christ who always pleases Him by the things He does.

Father God elects (chooses) and calls whomever He wishes
Jesus says to the elect, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you ….” (John 16:15).
Surely, here is a strong hint that we should investigate this matter further.
Romans chapter 9 is the most famous proponent of God’s election …



This is again true, in that hearts of sinners corrupted by lust, cannot choose to be servants of the Lord Jesus Christ. Once again, the unrighteous deeds must be repented from, for Jesus to cleanse the heart and life, to become a newly chosen vessel for His rightousness, charity, and godly living in this life, and that to come.

God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!

God judges every man and woman by our works, without exception nor respect of persons.

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

Only the doers of unrighteousness are judged to recieve God's justice of condemnation. His people doing His righteousness are justified with Him by judgment of our works.


God wishes that all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.

It's possible for God to save all men from our sins, but not all men repent of sinning to be saved by Him.

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Cor {7:10} For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:


“You love justice and hate evil.” (Hebrews 1”9)
God is not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should repent …

… the “us” referring to His elect, who are promised salvation.

Scripture now calls on all men to repent, the Jew first and also the Gentile, in order to recieve the promise of deliverance from sinning by Jesus Christ,. He is the Advocate for all men, and the propitition for all sins repented of for His sake.

Acts 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Christians are called to confess and repent of their on-going sins,
and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of all their unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9).

If we sin, then we still have the Advocate for the whole world to confess and repent toward Him.

The reason why Father God chooses some, but not others
Father God chooses to elect some people for His great pleasure.
He chooses to elect some to demonstrate to the whole world
His great love, mercy, grace, etc. (Romans 9:23).
He chooses to elect some to be companions for His Son throughout eternity (Scriptural?).

Those not chosen are given justice, which sadly is what they deserve.

God calls upon all men to repent for His Son's sake. He only chooses them that do repent of sins and trespasses.

Mat 22:14For many are called, but few are chosen.

2Ti 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

God is not a hypocrite to justify one transgressor because of their belief alone, while condemning another transgressor doing the same thing.

Rom 2:3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Gal 6:7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Rom 2:19 For there is no respect of persons with God.




Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation
This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.

The only unconditional part of eternal salvation in Jesus Christ, is that we unconditionally surrender to the victorious risen Lord, and unconditional obey Him in all things, even as He does the Father.

Psa 110:1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Heb{5:8} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; {5:9} And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.

Which are only them obeying Him.

1Pe 1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

God has no elect that have not obeyed the call to repent of ongoing sins and trespasses. All disobeying Him are judged children of disobedience by works.

To ensure our calling and election unto the end, we must add to our faith obedience to His virtue, godliness, and charity in all things.

2Pe 1:9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us …


1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.


God inhabits the praises of His saints trusting and thanking Him for obedience from sin.

Hos 14:2Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

He does not inhabit the praises of anyone committing ongoing sin in His name.

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: