Are you a body with a soul, or a soul with a body?
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There's a new thread I'd like for you to see if you would. It's Just so you know. Daniel 7:25
Yes agree, and it eisegesis to insist this means they have been extinguished.
The entire doctrine is eisegesis,
"the dead know nothing" can mean many different things from a philosophical point of view, he may have had in mind that the dead are unaware of what is happening here on earth.
Certainly not a verse to build a doctrine on.
The entire doctrine is eisegesis,
"the dead know nothing" can mean many different things from a philosophical point of view, he may have had in mind that the dead are unaware of what is happening here on earth.
Certainly not a verse to build a doctrine on.
solomon was given great wisdom from GOD, far above ours.
1Ki 4:29 And God gave Solomon wisdom, exceedingly deep insight, and understanding beyond measure, like the sand on the seashore.
1Ki 4:30 Solomon’s wisdom was greater than that of all the men of the East, greater than all the wisdom of Egypt.
1Ki 4:34 So men of all nations came to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, sent by all the kings of the earth, who had heard of his wisdom.
1Ki 4:29 And God gave Solomon wisdom, exceedingly deep insight, and understanding beyond measure, like the sand on the seashore.
1Ki 4:30 Solomon’s wisdom was greater than that of all the men of the East, greater than all the wisdom of Egypt.
1Ki 4:34 So men of all nations came to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, sent by all the kings of the earth, who had heard of his wisdom.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (NKJV):
"For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun."
Psalm 6:5 (NKJV):
"For in death there is no remembrance of You; in the grave who will give You thanks?"
Job 14:10-12 (NKJV):
"But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last and where is he? As water disappears from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dries up, so man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep."
There are no clear definitive answer about the soul when we die. from the verses above it seems the dead do not have any consciousness, or memory.
Luke 23:46 (NKJV):
"And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, 'Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.' Having said this, He breathed His last."
it is likely the souls return to god.
"For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun."
Psalm 6:5 (NKJV):
"For in death there is no remembrance of You; in the grave who will give You thanks?"
Job 14:10-12 (NKJV):
"But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last and where is he? As water disappears from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dries up, so man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep."
There are no clear definitive answer about the soul when we die. from the verses above it seems the dead do not have any consciousness, or memory.
Luke 23:46 (NKJV):
"And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, 'Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.' Having said this, He breathed His last."
it is likely the souls return to god.
The wages of sin is death.
The curse of death was placed on Adam and all of mankind.
We are destined to die because of sin.
Spiritual death is separation from God but God allows us to keep living so we can spiritually connect.
The definition of death is scientifically.....
the permanent ending of vital processes in a cell or tissue. The of life.
the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person.
But we know there are 2 resurrections and 2 deaths.
If your part of the second resurrection you are part of the second death which is eternal.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
The curse of death was placed on Adam and all of mankind.
We are destined to die because of sin.
Spiritual death is separation from God but God allows us to keep living so we can spiritually connect.
The definition of death is scientifically.....
the permanent ending of vital processes in a cell or tissue. The of life.
the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person.
But we know there are 2 resurrections and 2 deaths.
If your part of the second resurrection you are part of the second death which is eternal.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Excuses to doubt the word of God ???
If you start doubting the word of God you will believe a lie.
It was divinely inspired or it is not worth reading...
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Are you believing a lie?
If you start doubting the word of God you will believe a lie.
It was divinely inspired or it is not worth reading...
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Are you believing a lie?
In what way these are some verses that show that we are moral.
Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Man is mortal
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality,
only God is immortal
The soul is dies. .... Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The soul is destroyed with the body and dies. The soul is not immortal.
Study it yourself and you will learn that in all the 1700 biblical occurrences of the words “soul” and “spirit” not once are they referred to as being immortal or undying.
i know you don't want Ecclesiasties but just....
“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7).
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
notice the word return. The reverse of creation....
The words “breath” and “spirit” are often used interchangeably in the Bible.
Job 27:3 “All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils”.
“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). The word “spirit” has a marginal reference which reads, “or breath.” This is very important. The actual root word in the Greek is “pneuma,” a word which means “breath” or “air.” We take our English word “pneumonia” from pneuma because it is a disease of the lungs, or of breathing.
Gen 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
more verses ....
“For David is not ascended into the heavens” (Acts 2:34) King David is dead.
Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.”
Job 14:12-15 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Oh that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shall call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
A set time for God to raise people to life = the resurrection.
John 5:28, 29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Daniel 12:1, 2 And at that time thy people shall be delivered ... And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Sleep is often used to explan death.
John 11:11-14 Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Jesus said death is a sleep. If the man knew nothing while sleeping, how could he know any more after death?
Psalm 146:3, 4 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
This verse in Ecclesiastes is inspired too. and it backs up what the other verses state. i know you don't want me to quote it but just so you can see that it lines up...
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun... Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18, 19. For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day.
Would not the righteous dead praise God if they were ushered into heaven at their death?
David repeats the same truth,
Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.
Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Thessalonians 4: 16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
Paul here describes without any limitation the way and means by which we go to be with the Lord. Don’t overlook the word “so” in his statement. It means “in this way.” By that little word Paul precluded every other way of being with the Lord.
one more verse... sorry but you did say i lied....
Paul was about to die....
2 Timothy 4:6-8. For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. HENCEFORTH there is LAID UP for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me AT THAT DAY: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love HIS APPEARING”
Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Man is mortal
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality,
only God is immortal
The soul is dies. .... Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The soul is destroyed with the body and dies. The soul is not immortal.
Study it yourself and you will learn that in all the 1700 biblical occurrences of the words “soul” and “spirit” not once are they referred to as being immortal or undying.
i know you don't want Ecclesiasties but just....
“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7).
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
notice the word return. The reverse of creation....
The words “breath” and “spirit” are often used interchangeably in the Bible.
Job 27:3 “All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils”.
“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). The word “spirit” has a marginal reference which reads, “or breath.” This is very important. The actual root word in the Greek is “pneuma,” a word which means “breath” or “air.” We take our English word “pneumonia” from pneuma because it is a disease of the lungs, or of breathing.
Gen 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
more verses ....
“For David is not ascended into the heavens” (Acts 2:34) King David is dead.
Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.”
Job 14:12-15 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Oh that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shall call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
A set time for God to raise people to life = the resurrection.
John 5:28, 29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Daniel 12:1, 2 And at that time thy people shall be delivered ... And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Sleep is often used to explan death.
John 11:11-14 Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Jesus said death is a sleep. If the man knew nothing while sleeping, how could he know any more after death?
Psalm 146:3, 4 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
This verse in Ecclesiastes is inspired too. and it backs up what the other verses state. i know you don't want me to quote it but just so you can see that it lines up...
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun... Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18, 19. For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day.
Would not the righteous dead praise God if they were ushered into heaven at their death?
David repeats the same truth,
Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.
Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Thessalonians 4: 16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
Paul here describes without any limitation the way and means by which we go to be with the Lord. Don’t overlook the word “so” in his statement. It means “in this way.” By that little word Paul precluded every other way of being with the Lord.
one more verse... sorry but you did say i lied....
Paul was about to die....
2 Timothy 4:6-8. For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. HENCEFORTH there is LAID UP for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me AT THAT DAY: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love HIS APPEARING”