Are you a body with a soul, or a soul with a body?
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did you read it all?
Isaiah 38:18, 19. For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day.
Would not the righteous dead praise God if they were ushered into heaven at their death?
David repeats the same truth,
Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.
Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Isaiah 38:18, 19. For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day.
Would not the righteous dead praise God if they were ushered into heaven at their death?
David repeats the same truth,
Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.
Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
the devil is a liar and he does has more success using deception. He does not appear as a evel angel telling lies
He uses false religion, false theology, false teachings, and false interpretations.
He is cunning...
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? .....
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
The same thing today..... The devil does not tell the truth but uses cunning means to decieve...
There are 3 basic teachings that Satan has been promoting from the start.
The fact that christianity in many churches believes that the soul is immortal is so sad.
He uses false religion, false theology, false teachings, and false interpretations.
He is cunning...
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? .....
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
The same thing today..... The devil does not tell the truth but uses cunning means to decieve...
There are 3 basic teachings that Satan has been promoting from the start.
- You are your own boss, you determine your own morality, you don’t need to be accountable to God and Gods laws, you make your own laws.
- You are god, you are divine. You are your own lord and can save yourself. You are deity in yourself.
- You will live forever, You will never be destroyed.
The fact that christianity in many churches believes that the soul is immortal is so sad.
this is presumption, there is no evidence for that statement.. they are aware of other things, How do you know if the souls in Rev are symbolic or literal? How do you know if the parable of Jesus is an illustration symbolic of a lesson or a literal acount? Presumption is required. But the bible verses from other places state that the dead know nothing.
"For David is not ascended into the heavens" Acts 2:34. so i know David is not in heaven. that isn't presumption.
"For David is not ascended into the heavens" Acts 2:34. so i know David is not in heaven. that isn't presumption.
the rich man and lazarus
many have used this passage as direct Bible evidence that at death, the unrepentant go directly to an eternally burning hellfire, while the saved go straight to heaven. Others say the story is merely a picture illustration, a metaphor, of other divine principles, and that Jesus actually had different ideas about what happens in the afterlife. So which is it?
The story of the rich man and Lazarus comes after a series of carefully told parables, which are fictional tales used to illustrate spiritual lessons. Parables are a teaching tool Jesus used as a matter of habit. “All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them” (Matthew 13:34).
Our understanding of this story hinges on whether it is a parable or whether Jesus switched from a string of figurative lessons here to something literal.
In the Gospel of Luke, Jesus tells two other parables that begin the same way, referring to a rich man. “He spoke a parable to them, saying: ‘The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully’ ” (Luke 12:16). And, “There was a certain rich man who had a steward …” (Luke 16:1). Likewise, the central figure of this story is not Lazarus, but the unnamed rich man.
Jesus says that the rich man in Hades wanted a drop of water to cool his tongue. Would a drop of water offer any relief in the fires of hell? We can safely assume that Jesus is using hyperbole (exagerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally).
It is said that after he died, Lazarus was carried to the midst of Abraham’s bosom. Of course, angels do not literally carry saved people to Abraham’s bosom. We can safely assume this is yet another figure of speech.
Abraham and the rich man are said to be able to freely talk to each other. But would those in paradise really be able to see, hear, and talk to the lost blistering in Hades? Would it really be paradise to see your lost loved ones burning and not be able to help them? Again, we can safely assume that Jesus was painting an illustration, not recording facts.
The most rational understanding of this story is that it is also one of the many parables Jesus tells to illustrate divine truths. This is the position of many historical Bible scholars...
We can know that Jesus’ hearers that day would have understood that it was a parable. The word “Hades” was wellknown to be a word borrowed from Greek mythology. In those myths, Hades was both the name of the underworld as well as the name of the god in charge of the place. The Jewish people would have recognized Hades as a Greek myth and that Jesus was using hyperbole.
It’s always dangerous to base an entire doctrine on a single text, and the more we look into this subject, we’ll find that the rest of Scripture is clear that the punishment of the wicked comes at the end of the world.
Jesus said, John 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day , .
Furthermore, Jesus plainly stated that the saved do not receive their reward until the resurrection. John 6:54, Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is clear to me that this scripture is a parable.
many have used this passage as direct Bible evidence that at death, the unrepentant go directly to an eternally burning hellfire, while the saved go straight to heaven. Others say the story is merely a picture illustration, a metaphor, of other divine principles, and that Jesus actually had different ideas about what happens in the afterlife. So which is it?
The story of the rich man and Lazarus comes after a series of carefully told parables, which are fictional tales used to illustrate spiritual lessons. Parables are a teaching tool Jesus used as a matter of habit. “All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them” (Matthew 13:34).
Our understanding of this story hinges on whether it is a parable or whether Jesus switched from a string of figurative lessons here to something literal.
In the Gospel of Luke, Jesus tells two other parables that begin the same way, referring to a rich man. “He spoke a parable to them, saying: ‘The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully’ ” (Luke 12:16). And, “There was a certain rich man who had a steward …” (Luke 16:1). Likewise, the central figure of this story is not Lazarus, but the unnamed rich man.
Jesus says that the rich man in Hades wanted a drop of water to cool his tongue. Would a drop of water offer any relief in the fires of hell? We can safely assume that Jesus is using hyperbole (exagerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally).
It is said that after he died, Lazarus was carried to the midst of Abraham’s bosom. Of course, angels do not literally carry saved people to Abraham’s bosom. We can safely assume this is yet another figure of speech.
Abraham and the rich man are said to be able to freely talk to each other. But would those in paradise really be able to see, hear, and talk to the lost blistering in Hades? Would it really be paradise to see your lost loved ones burning and not be able to help them? Again, we can safely assume that Jesus was painting an illustration, not recording facts.
The most rational understanding of this story is that it is also one of the many parables Jesus tells to illustrate divine truths. This is the position of many historical Bible scholars...
We can know that Jesus’ hearers that day would have understood that it was a parable. The word “Hades” was wellknown to be a word borrowed from Greek mythology. In those myths, Hades was both the name of the underworld as well as the name of the god in charge of the place. The Jewish people would have recognized Hades as a Greek myth and that Jesus was using hyperbole.
It’s always dangerous to base an entire doctrine on a single text, and the more we look into this subject, we’ll find that the rest of Scripture is clear that the punishment of the wicked comes at the end of the world.
Jesus said, John 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day , .
Furthermore, Jesus plainly stated that the saved do not receive their reward until the resurrection. John 6:54, Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is clear to me that this scripture is a parable.
the bible clearly discribes the parts....
Dust + breath (spirit of God) = a living soul.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Reverse ... Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
the soul can die and does die....
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
The word “spirit” has a marginal reference which reads, “or breath.” This is very important. The actual root word in the Greek is “pneuma,” a word which means “breath” or “air.” But that same Greek word “pneuma” also has another meaning. It means “spirit.” For example, the Greek term for “Holy Spirit” is “Hagios pneumatos,” “Holy Breath” or “Holy Spirit.”
The words “breath” and “spirit” are often used interchangeably in the Bible.
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
Gen 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
There is a lot of confussion about the soul because of pagan teachings coming into the christian religion.
Not even one time in the Bible is the soul referred to as being immortal or undying.
The best illustration i know, is the following one.... body = light bulb. breath of life = electric current. soul = light.
Let us liken the body to a light bulb. The electric current flowing into that bulb represents the breath of life which God put into the body, and the light itself will represent the soul which man became after the breath joined the body. As we look at the shining light we see a perfect representation of the completed creation. Now we press the button and turn the light off. What has happened? The current has left the bulb, just as the breath leaves the body at death. Now where is the light? Did it go up into the electric socket? No, it simply ceased to exist when the current separated from the bulb. Then let us ask, where is the soul when the breath separates from the body? There simply is no soul until, in the resurrection, God restores the breath of life to the body. God turns the power on.
Dust + breath (spirit of God) = a living soul.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Reverse ... Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
the soul can die and does die....
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
The word “spirit” has a marginal reference which reads, “or breath.” This is very important. The actual root word in the Greek is “pneuma,” a word which means “breath” or “air.” But that same Greek word “pneuma” also has another meaning. It means “spirit.” For example, the Greek term for “Holy Spirit” is “Hagios pneumatos,” “Holy Breath” or “Holy Spirit.”
The words “breath” and “spirit” are often used interchangeably in the Bible.
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
Gen 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
There is a lot of confussion about the soul because of pagan teachings coming into the christian religion.
Not even one time in the Bible is the soul referred to as being immortal or undying.
The best illustration i know, is the following one.... body = light bulb. breath of life = electric current. soul = light.
Let us liken the body to a light bulb. The electric current flowing into that bulb represents the breath of life which God put into the body, and the light itself will represent the soul which man became after the breath joined the body. As we look at the shining light we see a perfect representation of the completed creation. Now we press the button and turn the light off. What has happened? The current has left the bulb, just as the breath leaves the body at death. Now where is the light? Did it go up into the electric socket? No, it simply ceased to exist when the current separated from the bulb. Then let us ask, where is the soul when the breath separates from the body? There simply is no soul until, in the resurrection, God restores the breath of life to the body. God turns the power on.
every knee will bow, and every tongue confess 
physical death or spiritual death?
John 5:25-29
Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth — those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
if the dead heard His voice and lived at that time, but not yet everyone in the grave, what is He calling "dead"? physical death or spiritual death?
every knee will bow, and every tongue confess
physical death or spiritual death?
John 5:25-29
Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth — those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
if the dead heard His voice and lived at that time, but not yet everyone in the grave, what is He calling "dead"? physical death or spiritual death?
Neither of these resurrections have happened yet.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
In Peter’s sermon on the day of Pentecost, he made this strong statement about David, who had been dead for over 1,000 years:
So Christ has come and gone at this point.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.....Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:
David had long ago departed this life, and though often wayward, had received the assurance of forgiveness and salvation. Why, then, was he not enjoying the bliss of heaven ten long centuries after his passing?
The inspired Peter said David was in his grave, and had not yet ascended to heaven. How interesting! If the man after God’s own heart had not received his reward 1,000 years after death, what about all the other saved people who have lived and died? They, also, are resting in their graves, awaiting the call of God in the resurrection.
i wasn't saying death is the same as sleep... I was saying that the term sleep is used to describe death because it is like (not the same as) death in certain ways.
In death you lose all conciousness and time does not exist. 1 year or 1000 years is the same for the dead. with no conciousness you feel nothing and know nothing. If i have a deep sleep and no one disturbs me it is like 1 second between when i go to sleep and wake up and i'm not conscious of things around.
And because there is a resurrection for all we will all wake up.
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
In death you lose all conciousness and time does not exist. 1 year or 1000 years is the same for the dead. with no conciousness you feel nothing and know nothing. If i have a deep sleep and no one disturbs me it is like 1 second between when i go to sleep and wake up and i'm not conscious of things around.
And because there is a resurrection for all we will all wake up.
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Whoops, now you just goofed around and messed up our agreement.
2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
This is just simply the fact that as far as God's concerned, there's no accounting of time. Quit placing one meaning to mean another. That's just not right doing that with the scriptures.
i'm not sure what your saying....
I know the verse above and it has nothing to do with the point i was making....
God is beyond time...fulstop.
We are created in time and when we are conscious time affects us.. my point is that when you are unconscious and dead time does not affect us. We are not aware of time when we are dead. the dead know not any thing.
I know the verse above and it has nothing to do with the point i was making....
God is beyond time...fulstop.
We are created in time and when we are conscious time affects us.. my point is that when you are unconscious and dead time does not affect us. We are not aware of time when we are dead. the dead know not any thing.