I understand that many believe that, but then what do you do with the prophecy in Isa 2? Or Hos 3:5? Or what about 2Tim 3:1 that talks of the "last days" in the future tense? Also, the OC age ended at the Cross when the thick curtain between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies was rent in two from top to bottom. And Christ continued to speak and teach after the Cross!
Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
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The old covenant didn't immediately end as the new covenant came into being. There was a transitional period from the cross to the destruction of Jerusalem. Paul teaches this in Hebrew 8:13. The book of Acts is itself a transitional book. The gospel did begin to be preached in Jerusalem, then Judæa, then Samaria, then to the uttermost parts of the known world at that time. By the time Jerusalem was destroyed, Gentiles were the larger part of the church, Jewish worship and customs were in many ways discarded, and the church was well established.
It is conditional upon a person “ABIDING IN CHRIST, “being faithful til death, on Christian’s who KEEP CHRIST’S WORDS -John 8:51- anyone who KEEPS MY WORD shall never see death. That is a CONDITIONAL PROMISE. Just because a person dies not believe that or refuse to acknowledge it or accept that fact dies NOT make it any less true.[/quote]
Then it is really conditional life. not eternal life.. God is not going to call something eternal that is not eternal.
Those people returned to their vomit,
It is conditional upon a person “ABIDING IN CHRIST, “being faithful til death, on Christian’s who KEEP CHRIST’S WORDS -John 8:51- anyone who KEEPS MY WORD shall never see death. That is a CONDITIONAL PROMISE. Just because a person dies not believe that or refuse to acknowledge it or accept that fact dies NOT make it any less true.[/quote]
Then it is really conditional life. not eternal life.. God is not going to call something eternal that is not eternal.
Those people returned to their vomit, because they were dogs, They had not yet repented and come to true saving faith. where God made them into a new creation.
Your describing make believers, not true believers.[/QUOTE]
because they were dogs, They had not yet repented and come to true saving faith. where God made them into a new creation.
Your describing make believers, not true believers.[/QUOTE]
You are not afraid to call Jesus a liar?? Because He said and I QUOTE, “Be faithful unto death and I will give you eternal life.” And you said, “NO.” And then you give John 3 as your reason that Rev. 2:10 is NOT TRUE. I guess I just don’t understand how John 3 makes Rev 2:10 NOT TRUE? Isn’t ALL of God’s word true and inspired? Is only PART of the Bible true? And some scriptures are NOT TRUE. If I believed that any scripture in the Bible was a lie, I woujd throw away tge whole book because we could not be sure what part was true and what part was NOT true.
That certainly is NOT MY FAITH!! All scripture is inspired by God, 2 Tim. 3:16, Not only does Rev. 2:10 say that God gives eternal life to those who are faithful, And John 3 says He gives it to those who look to the cross in faith, but God also says “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood shall have eternal life” John 6:54. Does that make YOUR scripture in John 3 not true? Does one scripture NULLIFY, or CANCELL OUT another scripture? Is that how you interpret God’s word? God also said, if you keep yourselves in the love of God, you will have eternal life. Jude 1:21.what are you going to do with that one? Throw it out, too? Jesus also said, whoever drinks the water that I give them will have eternal life. John 4:14. So what exactly have you proved??
Psalms 119:160 all of God’s word is truth—the SUM of it. That means you ADD IT ALL TOGETHER. You can’t take a single verse and ignore everything else. John 3 does not, in anyway, take anything away from what Jesus says in Rev. 2:10. You still have to be faithful in order to have eternal life. Jesus said it and I believe it—do you??
You obviously have not read all of 2 Peter 2:22 where dogs returned to their vomit. You said these people “ had not yet repented and
Come to true saving faith?” I wonder how you know that. Because God did not say that about them. What God says about these people is that THEY HAD ESCAPED THE POLLUTION OF THE WORLD, through the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Does that sound like they are lost? They WERE LOST when they were in the polluted world—but tHEY ESCAPED that when they found Christ. But now, they have become entangled AGAIN -they WENT BACK to the pollutions of the world. Verse 20. Then he says in verse 21 that these people HAD KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS—they HAD BEEN SAVED! They had known the right way and the Lord Jesus Christ, But they TURNED AWAY. From it. That’s why they were described as dogs who had gotten rid of the thing making them sick by vomiting it up—then they turned around and ate it again. That’s how God sees people who have been saved from the world with all of its sins, and then go back to a world of sin. God says these people were saved people! Not unbelievers. The Holy Spirit is the one describing them and He knows their hearts. He has not made a mistake. There is no way , that you or I could know that these people were just “make believers”. We cannot read the hearts of men. We are not God. You can’t make that judgement call. And we know that is not true because God tells us they were believers buy the way He describes them.
Then it is really conditional life. not eternal life.. God is not going to call something eternal that is not eternal.
Those people returned to their vomit,
It is conditional upon a person “ABIDING IN CHRIST, “being faithful til death, on Christian’s who KEEP CHRIST’S WORDS -John 8:51- anyone who KEEPS MY WORD shall never see death. That is a CONDITIONAL PROMISE. Just because a person dies not believe that or refuse to acknowledge it or accept that fact dies NOT make it any less true.[/quote]
Then it is really conditional life. not eternal life.. God is not going to call something eternal that is not eternal.
Those people returned to their vomit, because they were dogs, They had not yet repented and come to true saving faith. where God made them into a new creation.
Your describing make believers, not true believers.[/QUOTE]
because they were dogs, They had not yet repented and come to true saving faith. where God made them into a new creation.
Your describing make believers, not true believers.[/QUOTE]
You are not afraid to call Jesus a liar?? Because He said and I QUOTE, “Be faithful unto death and I will give you eternal life.” And you said, “NO.” And then you give John 3 as your reason that Rev. 2:10 is NOT TRUE. I guess I just don’t understand how John 3 makes Rev 2:10 NOT TRUE? Isn’t ALL of God’s word true and inspired? Is only PART of the Bible true? And some scriptures are NOT TRUE. If I believed that any scripture in the Bible was a lie, I woujd throw away tge whole book because we could not be sure what part was true and what part was NOT true.
That certainly is NOT MY FAITH!! All scripture is inspired by God, 2 Tim. 3:16, Not only does Rev. 2:10 say that God gives eternal life to those who are faithful, And John 3 says He gives it to those who look to the cross in faith, but God also says “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood shall have eternal life” John 6:54. Does that make YOUR scripture in John 3 not true? Does one scripture NULLIFY, or CANCELL OUT another scripture? Is that how you interpret God’s word? God also said, if you keep yourselves in the love of God, you will have eternal life. Jude 1:21.what are you going to do with that one? Throw it out, too? Jesus also said, whoever drinks the water that I give them will have eternal life. John 4:14. So what exactly have you proved??
Psalms 119:160 all of God’s word is truth—the SUM of it. That means you ADD IT ALL TOGETHER. You can’t take a single verse and ignore everything else. John 3 does not, in anyway, take anything away from what Jesus says in Rev. 2:10. You still have to be faithful in order to have eternal life. Jesus said it and I believe it—do you??
You obviously have not read all of 2 Peter 2:22 where dogs returned to their vomit. You said these people “ had not yet repented and
Come to true saving faith?” I wonder how you know that. Because God did not say that about them. What God says about these people is that THEY HAD ESCAPED THE POLLUTION OF THE WORLD, through the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Does that sound like they are lost? They WERE LOST when they were in the polluted world—but tHEY ESCAPED that when they found Christ. But now, they have become entangled AGAIN -they WENT BACK to the pollutions of the world. Verse 20. Then he says in verse 21 that these people HAD KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS—they HAD BEEN SAVED! They had known the right way and the Lord Jesus Christ, But they TURNED AWAY. From it. That’s why they were described as dogs who had gotten rid of the thing making them sick by vomiting it up—then they turned around and ate it again. That’s how God sees people who have been saved from the world with all of its sins, and then go back to a world of sin. God says these people were saved people! Not unbelievers. The Holy Spirit is the one describing them and He knows their hearts. He has not made a mistake. There is no way , that you or I could know that these people were just “make believers”. We cannot read the hearts of men. We are not God. You can’t make that judgement call. And we know that is not true because God tells us they were believers buy the way He describes them.
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And yet James said this:
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
That's not a reference to Christ and His accomplishment for us. I agree with what you said about perfect satisfaction for our salvation, but that is not what James taught here given that he made no mention of the faith and works of Christ whatsoever in relation to these two items a man must possess and exemplify from and through himself. The man must have faith, but is justified by his own works. That's personal, with it being directed squarely at each individual who was under the Kingdom program. Blessedly, we are not under that, for if we were, then we would not be under grace. The very definition of grace is "unmerited favor," and if we have to work for it in any way, then it is not grace:
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Nothing there about works as was the message by James to the Jews.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
What is of ourselves? Works. If it's a gift, then we don't prove our worthiness of a gift by works.
Don't down-play the discussion about the Law so quickly, because we are surrounded by people who have joined up with a growing movement all across this country known by a number of names, one being Hebrew Roots. They are of the belief that we must strive to follow the Mosaic Law as a show of righteousness and reward, and some even believe it's a matter of salvation.
If you REALLY want to see the upcoming corruption of scripture, check out this site:
https://www.119ministries.com/
They have videos on Youtube, and their theology is vastly departed from Paul's Gospel to us all. Many of them consider Paul a heretic.
This is why I keep alive the conversations that touch upon the Law of Moses.
MM
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
That's not a reference to Christ and His accomplishment for us. I agree with what you said about perfect satisfaction for our salvation, but that is not what James taught here given that he made no mention of the faith and works of Christ whatsoever in relation to these two items a man must possess and exemplify from and through himself. The man must have faith, but is justified by his own works. That's personal, with it being directed squarely at each individual who was under the Kingdom program. Blessedly, we are not under that, for if we were, then we would not be under grace. The very definition of grace is "unmerited favor," and if we have to work for it in any way, then it is not grace:
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Nothing there about works as was the message by James to the Jews.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
What is of ourselves? Works. If it's a gift, then we don't prove our worthiness of a gift by works.
Don't down-play the discussion about the Law so quickly, because we are surrounded by people who have joined up with a growing movement all across this country known by a number of names, one being Hebrew Roots. They are of the belief that we must strive to follow the Mosaic Law as a show of righteousness and reward, and some even believe it's a matter of salvation.
If you REALLY want to see the upcoming corruption of scripture, check out this site:
https://www.119ministries.com/
They have videos on Youtube, and their theology is vastly departed from Paul's Gospel to us all. Many of them consider Paul a heretic.
This is why I keep alive the conversations that touch upon the Law of Moses.
MM
Yes, but it is justification by Christ's faith and Christ's works, not man's. We can contribute nothing but to receive it as its helpless beneficiaries. God bestows it generously and fully, without prerequisites unto those whom He had chosen for it—it is solely a gift from an exceedingly gracious and merciful God to those who do not deserve it. That is what makes salvation by grace, not by works and Christ the Savior, not man.
Nope. In matters of salvation, there is but a singular spiritual law that bestows eternal life: the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. At the time of their salvation, Christ places His chosen under His law - the law of life. They are spiritual descendants of Abraham. At the same time, Christ also removes them from under the law of sin and death, which law, all who come into this world are under. The purpose of carnal, earthly laws is to act as guide to teach a standard of behavior to Christians. However, those laws should not be perceived or used as a way to leverage or secure forgiveness or salvation.
Nope. In matters of salvation, there is but a singular spiritual law that bestows eternal life: the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. At the time of their salvation, Christ places His chosen under His law - the law of life. They are spiritual descendants of Abraham. At the same time, Christ also removes them from under the law of sin and death, which law, all who come into this world are under. The purpose of carnal, earthly laws is to act as guide to teach a standard of behavior to Christians. However, those laws should not be perceived or used as a way to leverage or secure forgiveness or salvation.
I don't have time to spend on James but here's my quick take on the book, as a whole. James to the NT what the Wisdom Books are to the Old. There's lots of clues to what I just said throughout the book. James even writes about "wisdom" and the "wise". But what is "wisdom" if not the practical application of knowledge?
James also alludes quite a bit to Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, especially the Beatitudes which filled with godly wisdom.
James, therefore, differs substantially from other NT writers for all of them were concerned first about theology proper (orthodoxy), and then with practical application (orthopraxy), as well. But James focuses on the latter in his book. His epistle is the Manual on Practical Theology. This is where he and Paul differ, for in Romans, for example, Paul spends a great deal of time teaching the theology of Justification, whereas James is looking entirely at Justification from the horizontal perspective -- from day-to-day living and a Christian's contact with other people. From this perspective, then, we can understand why he would say that a man is justified also by his works -- because this is what people see in a professing Christian -- or at least should see. And when they see a Christian walking the talk, then that Christian's talk is vindicated -- he's actually justified in people's eyes because he backed up his talk by good deeds, with faithfulness, love, etc. God knows peoples' hearts whereas man does not. Men need practical proof of faith.
Anyhoo...that's my 3 cents worth...
James also alludes quite a bit to Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, especially the Beatitudes which filled with godly wisdom.
James, therefore, differs substantially from other NT writers for all of them were concerned first about theology proper (orthodoxy), and then with practical application (orthopraxy), as well. But James focuses on the latter in his book. His epistle is the Manual on Practical Theology. This is where he and Paul differ, for in Romans, for example, Paul spends a great deal of time teaching the theology of Justification, whereas James is looking entirely at Justification from the horizontal perspective -- from day-to-day living and a Christian's contact with other people. From this perspective, then, we can understand why he would say that a man is justified also by his works -- because this is what people see in a professing Christian -- or at least should see. And when they see a Christian walking the talk, then that Christian's talk is vindicated -- he's actually justified in people's eyes because he backed up his talk by good deeds, with faithfulness, love, etc. God knows peoples' hearts whereas man does not. Men need practical proof of faith.
Anyhoo...that's my 3 cents worth...
Who are the “they” who went out from them? Verse 18 tells us the ones who went out from them were the ANTICHRISTS.” That’s who this is talking about. . There were many of them —not just one. Verse 22 tells us WHO is an antichrist—those WHO DENY THE FATHER AND THE SON. GOD can read hearts, we cannot.
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One example is Isa 2:1-5 (and also Mic 4) which is a prophecy for the "last days". Has that prophecy been fulfilled or will it be fulfilled in the New Heavens and New Earth? Have the nations already beaten their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks, and have all the nations stopped training for war? if not, then the "last days" must extend from the first advent of Christ to the second.
Also, one more thing about Heb 8:13. A careful reading reveals that the writer saw the Old Covenant as already obsolete. The passage doesn't say that the Old will become obsolete, rather he says it "is" obsolete. It became obsolete the moment Christ died on the Cross, at which point the New Covenant was ratified in his blood. What the Hebrews text does say is that the first one "will soon disappear". God had to graphically prove the annulment of the OC to national Israel in 70 A.D. by destroying it's greatest symbol: the temple. What actually disappeared was OC Judaism -- its priesthood, its sacrifices, its feast days, etc. -- it was wiped off the face of the earth. The Judaism that is practiced today by religious Jews throughout the world is merely a modified version. Also, and just as importantly, the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. sent a clear signal to national Israel that God departed from them, i.e. "divorced them" as prophesied in the OT.
So, I stand by what I said yesterday that the OC became obsolete the moment Christ died and ratified the NC. The "transition" period didn't involve the first and second covenants per se. There were never two competing, contrary covenants in force at the same time and in the same sense from God's perspective. But what the transistion period was really all about was the destruction of the last physical vestige of the OC which had already become obsolete.
Also, one more thing about Heb 8:13. A careful reading reveals that the writer saw the Old Covenant as already obsolete. The passage doesn't say that the Old will become obsolete, rather he says it "is" obsolete. It became obsolete the moment Christ died on the Cross, at which point the New Covenant was ratified in his blood. What the Hebrews text does say is that the first one "will soon disappear". God had to graphically prove the annulment of the OC to national Israel in 70 A.D. by destroying it's greatest symbol: the temple. What actually disappeared was OC Judaism -- its priesthood, its sacrifices, its feast days, etc. -- it was wiped off the face of the earth. The Judaism that is practiced today by religious Jews throughout the world is merely a modified version. Also, and just as importantly, the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. sent a clear signal to national Israel that God departed from them, i.e. "divorced them" as prophesied in the OT.
So, I stand by what I said yesterday that the OC became obsolete the moment Christ died and ratified the NC. The "transition" period didn't involve the first and second covenants per se. There were never two competing, contrary covenants in force at the same time and in the same sense from God's perspective. But what the transistion period was really all about was the destruction of the last physical vestige of the OC which had already become obsolete.
So I should look to these passages like you do and have Jesus contradict himself? Did Jesus teach that we are under law and not under grace? Do you even know what grace is? I mean from the way you post. I do not see any evidence you understand grace
[quote[I can show scripture where Jesus said it. Can you shore scripture that says it is not true? The Bible is not wrong; but your doctrine may be![/quote]
Your wrong. You taking the word outside of context does not make you right.
The bible can not contradict itself.
Then again, Your under law not under grace.
John did not speak it was required to obey, He spoke about those who have been saved, They WILL do these things..
Then it is really conditional life. not eternal life.. God is not going to call something eternal that is not eternal.
Those people returned to their vomit, because they were dogs, They had not yet repented and come to true saving faith. where God made them into a new creation.
Your describing make believers, not true believers.[/QUOTE]
Yes, THE CHURCH had fallen from grace.
You need to go find out what Grace is. Because you can not earn grace.. yet you are preaching we must earn grace or we will lose it.
hence there is no grace at all. You preach works
[quote[I can show scripture where Jesus said it. Can you shore scripture that says it is not true? The Bible is not wrong; but your doctrine may be![/quote]
Your wrong. You taking the word outside of context does not make you right.
The bible can not contradict itself.
Then again, Your under law not under grace.
John did not speak it was required to obey, He spoke about those who have been saved, They WILL do these things..
Then it is really conditional life. not eternal life.. God is not going to call something eternal that is not eternal.
Those people returned to their vomit, because they were dogs, They had not yet repented and come to true saving faith. where God made them into a new creation.
Your describing make believers, not true believers.[/QUOTE]
Yes, THE CHURCH had fallen from grace.
You need to go find out what Grace is. Because you can not earn grace.. yet you are preaching we must earn grace or we will lose it.
hence there is no grace at all. You preach works
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Indeed no one looks at the fact it was conditional based on the agreement he made with them
It was a blessing if they obeyer the lae of the land
“If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely. And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land. ….
(But if they didn’t it was the opposite )
But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; and if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:”
Leviticus 26:3-6, 14-15 KJV
It would lead to the desolation of the land and people
“I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.”
Deuteronomy 4:26 KJV
“And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.”
Jeremiah 24:10 KJV
“The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.”
Deuteronomy 28:21 KJV
“And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours. And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.”
Leviticus 26:31-33 KJV
It could have been the highest nation of earth and Gods kingdom among us but was fulfilled as the curse rather than blessing
It was a blessing if they obeyer the lae of the land
“If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely. And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land. ….
(But if they didn’t it was the opposite )
But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; and if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:”
Leviticus 26:3-6, 14-15 KJV
It would lead to the desolation of the land and people
“I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.”
Deuteronomy 4:26 KJV
“And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.”
Jeremiah 24:10 KJV
“The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.”
Deuteronomy 28:21 KJV
“And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours. And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.”
Leviticus 26:31-33 KJV
It could have been the highest nation of earth and Gods kingdom among us but was fulfilled as the curse rather than blessing
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Theology 101 labels that as Eisegetical Hermeneutics, not Exegetical.
Where that is true in relation to the work of salvation itself, and the price that was paid for it, James was still was speaking on what is required on the part of the Jews. There's no getting around that. His words betray absolutely an instruction to each and every Jew who sought that salvation work that was completed by Christ. To try and say that James was referring to what was already accomplished by Christ on the part of each individual Jew, that's an alteration of the text by having to inject into what is plainly not stated.
Generally speaking, those out there who think James was talking to us who are under the Gospel of Grace, read James 1:1. If that were meant for Gentiles as well, then you must have a very very dim view of not only God's ability to inspire His meaning, and/or you think James was remiss in writing what was inspired or meant to be inspired that others reading it want to inject into it from their own imaginations. Either way, there are many who habitually deal dishonestly with the text. I'm hoping that you, Roger, are a cut above all those folks out there who do that.
MM
Where that is true in relation to the work of salvation itself, and the price that was paid for it, James was still was speaking on what is required on the part of the Jews. There's no getting around that. His words betray absolutely an instruction to each and every Jew who sought that salvation work that was completed by Christ. To try and say that James was referring to what was already accomplished by Christ on the part of each individual Jew, that's an alteration of the text by having to inject into what is plainly not stated.
Generally speaking, those out there who think James was talking to us who are under the Gospel of Grace, read James 1:1. If that were meant for Gentiles as well, then you must have a very very dim view of not only God's ability to inspire His meaning, and/or you think James was remiss in writing what was inspired or meant to be inspired that others reading it want to inject into it from their own imaginations. Either way, there are many who habitually deal dishonestly with the text. I'm hoping that you, Roger, are a cut above all those folks out there who do that.
MM