It depends on what you mean by "trinitarian". Orthodox creeds are not the Word. And neither is that diagram.
Please help me to respond to some of my non-trinitarian friends
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I mean, do you believe that God, Jesus and the Holy spirit's is the same being or do you believe that are different things?? I, just like you don't care what Orthodox creed say or the diagram that you said.
Yes, Jesus Who is God died .
His spirit left His body and went to hell. That's a definition of death.
Jesus is 100% human AND 100% Deity.
You cannot separate the seed of David from the Son of God.
Jesus died.. and rose again BODILY.
The Father, his Son and the Holy Spirit are God- the one God of scripture, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.
I don't really like "Godhead debates"; but I will occasionally throw dogmatic trash into the bin where it belongs.
Only his humanity died. Died spiritually when pierced by our sins.
Humanity in itself is not God.
What you have been indicating?
Is the Jesus is fully God, and fully God.
Please, the guy is confused enough.
There is no father unless there is evidence of a son and there is no son unless there is evidence of a spirit, and there is no spirit unless there is evidence of a father, and so on. That is, "There are three that testify..." and These agree and cannot deny Himself. Jesus never said, "I'm not God," but He certainly did not deny it. There is only one time that is often misconstrued as a denial, yet He did not say rebuke the rich young ruler saying, "Don't call me good, there is only one good, and I'm not good." He posed a rhetorical question which is designed to persuade thought rather than to elicit an answer. He asked it because He knew the young man's heart, that he thought low enough of Jesus' omniscience that he ventured to successfully patronize Him in order to garner public praise and respect, from the most publicly praised and respected 'good teacher' at that time, for "keeping all these from my youth," and he went away sad, not only missing the public praise from a prominent teacher but also totally missing just exactly how good Jesus Was, Is, and Will BE.
How does that verse related to the Holy Trinity? It speaks about "father and mother". The Trinity simply has God the Father.
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God
and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. John 1:18
Jesus is both man and God.
By means of Jesus translating and interpreting God for us into our way of thinking, through Him, we are seeing the Father in such a way, that you, as a man, can be made able to see Him according to our human ability.
In other words…
Jesus is God's means for the perfect interpretation of God to be provided for us, to be shown God being revealed to us in terms of our 'human abilities of thought and perception.'
John 1:18b Amplified Bible, Classic Edition
He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where
He can be seen; He has interpreted Him, and He has made Him known].
grace and peace ..........
My friend says that you don't have the correct understanding of Oneness.
John 17: 20-23 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also who shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Jesus is praying to the Father and at the same time is explaining Oneness. How is the Father in Jesus and Jesus in the Father? Jesus is filled with the Holy Spirit of the Father and where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. In Isaiah 63: 9-10, the Holy Spirit is referred to as the "Angel of His presence". It is referred to as an angel because it can be sent. When someone is baptized by Christ with the Holy Spirit, he becomes the temple of the Son, who is the temple of the Father ("as thou, Father art in me, and I in thee"). The Holy Spirit is a portal through which the Father (the invisible God) can interact with the beings indwelt. Christ is so filled with the Holy Spirit that he is the visible image of the invisible God and is One with the Father because of the portal (Holy Spirit) that connects them. When we get baptized with this portal, both Father and Son enter our beings and we as part of the spiritual body of Christ are welcomed in the Father's family. That is how we are in Christ and in the Father. Together, they perfect us by filling us with divine love so that when every thought and action is motivated by love for God first and everyone else as we love ourselves, we will be obeying the Spirit of the Law as given by Jesus when asked which is the greatest commandment. We become One with the Father and Son when they can access our beings through this portal. Any living being with a mind of his own would have words to explain his thoughts, but the Holy Spirit does not speak his own words. When the Holy Spirit speaks, he is speaking the words of the Father or the Son.
The Holy Spirit carries out the decreed will of both the Father and the Son. At the time that our Lord declared to peter - that it was revealed to him by the Father - this fact was said because the Holy Spirit's ministry in believers had not yet come. They were still under Jesus Christ's personal ministry. However, Jesus promised that when He was gone away, the Holy Spirit would come and be every believers revelatory guide into Truth.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.
I thought a learned person, such as yourself, would have known this simple Biblical fact.
I understand the point you are making and I do agree that a believer can allow many things to slow his/her understanding and growth in the Truth; however, you are overlooking the simple truth given by our Lord in John's Gospel account:
John 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.
Since understanding clearly who Jesus Christ is.. both in His Person and Work and understanding who God is, which are paramount to the believer being saved --- This is why I said, the Holy Spirit would never allow such erroneous views as believing that God was nontrinitarian or that Jesus Christ was and is not the eternal son of God.
Grace and Peace be with you.
You are trying to be nice and reasonable... I understand.
But, who did Jesus say those words to?
To the average believer who attends church maybe once, or twice a week?
Or, were they spoken to specially chosen disciples who had for three years been under continuous teaching from the greatest Bible teacher to walk the earth, always training them for what he called for them to do?
I have seen crazy Christians abuse John 14:26. Many become enemies of the cross.
No, sir. It's not that simple.
Dear friend, you seem to be reading a lot more into this than the original point that was being made.
What does church attendees and crazy Christians have to do with any of this? I think you are letting your concerns for "easy believism", false Christians and Bible verse abuse, take you away from a simple, clear, black and white statement of fact.
I was aware of this simple assertion of fact when I made the post. It's not a very good assertion of fact, though. If this was about the Holy Spirit's ministry in believers, as you say, you are basically left with Calvinism; because you have people receiving the Holy Spirit and then having the trinity revealed to them, and then you consider them believers- but it is only believers that will receive the Spirit to begin with.
But here's what Jesus said about how he would be revealed in the days when the Holy Spirit is poured out: "The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.” and “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him."
"2nd person of the trinity" is not his words; that is the words of dogma, revealed by the revealers of dogma- and received and so easily explained by every Catholic whether they actually believe it or not because it is a tradition of man.