Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[studier]

I'm curious how you read this verse in context and come up with the idea that it's talking about a command to all men to believe? If I understand your previous comments, I think we basically agree about Calvinism; however, I'm just curious about why you reach this conclusion about 1 John 3:23.

Cont'd:

So, contextually, again, 1 John is not just about belief, but also about unbelief. So, I see warrant to see God's commandment as being a general statement of His commanding all men to believe in His Son.

Then, with this in mind, I also see 1 John3:23 as a basic summary of the entirety of God's mandate re: Christ:

• God commands men to believe in the name of His Son = Jesus = [the] Christ.
  • Belief in the name can be and likely is wording re: the authority of God's Son = Jesus = [the] Christ.
  • "God's Son" and [the] "Christ" are titles of authority
  • So, we have the absolute authority - God - commanding men re: the authority of God's Son = Jesus = [the] Christ.
• And God commands men to love one another just as God's Son = Jesus = [the] Christ gave a command [to do].
  • So, we have the absolute authority - God - commanding men to obey God's Son = Jesus = [the] Christ.
• So believe in the name of God's Son = Jesus = [the] Christ and love one another as God's Son = Jesus = [the] Christ commands.
  • Ultimately this is the Christian Faith in one verse.
  • This is God's commandment to all men - believe in the name/authority of Jesus Christ and do what Jesus Christ commands.
  • All men are commanded to be believers.
  • There is no Biblical belief apart from submission to the authority of God and the authority of His Son.
  • There is no way to believe apart from knowingly or unknowingly obeying God's command to believe, because whether or not we know it, God has commanded all men to believe.
  • 1 John 3:23 is just one big authority statement from every angle and men are simply to submit to God's absolute authority in/by Faith because this is God's command.

There is more to this, but this is the start.

 

[notmyown]

I'm curious how you read this verse in context and come up with the idea that it's talking about a command to all men to believe? If I understand your previous comments, I think we basically agree about Calvinism; however, I'm just curious about why you reach this conclusion about 1 John 3:23.

do you think it's similar to what Paul said at the Areopagus?

 

[ResidentAlien]

Cont'd:

So, contextually, again, 1 John is not just about belief, but also about unbelief. So, I see warrant to see God's commandment as being a general statement of His commanding all men to believe in His Son.

Then, with this in mind, I also see 1 John3:23 as a basic summary of the entirety of God's mandate re: Christ:

• God commands men to believe in the name of His Son = Jesus = [the] Christ.
  • Belief in the name can be and likely is wording re: the authority of God's Son = Jesus = [the] Christ.
  • "God's Son" and [the] "Christ" are titles of authority
  • So, we have the absolute authority - God - commanding men re: the authority of God's Son = Jesus = [the] Christ.
• And God commands men to love one another just as God's Son = Jesus = [the] Christ gave a command [to do].
  • So, we have the absolute authority - God - commanding men to obey God's Son = Jesus = [the] Christ.
• So believe in the name of God's Son = Jesus = [the] Christ and love one another as God's Son = Jesus = [the] Christ commands.
  • Ultimately this is the Christian Faith in one verse.
  • This is God's commandment to all men - believe in the name/authority of Jesus Christ and do what Jesus Christ commands.
  • All men are commanded to be believers.
  • There is no Biblical belief apart from submission to the authority of God and the authority of His Son.
  • There is no way to believe apart from knowingly or unknowingly obeying God's command to believe, because whether or not we know it, God has commanded all men to believe.
  • 1 John 3:23 is just one big authority statement from every angle and men are simply to submit to God's absolute authority in/by Faith because this is God's command.

There is more to this, but this is the start.

I see, fair enough.

 

[ResidentAlien]

do you think it's similar to what Paul said at the Areopagus?

I don't know. Do you?

 

[notmyown]

I don't know. Do you?

i do

Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent. For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.

 

[selahsays]

I see this surprises @NEWTOCHRISTIANITY . It shouldn't be surprising to anybody to see that a system initiated from Calvin's works about 500 years ago and having had all these centuries to be considered and developed would have this amount of Scriptural detail to claim as substantiation.

So, start analyzing it all and see how well you can argue against it, assuming you will consider this as being something necessary to redeem your time doing.

…and “she” begins (again)

 

[selahsays]

It’s not about a man named Calvin or a flower acronym. It’s about what the Bible says.

 

[studier]

i do

Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent. For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.

In context, what do you see as the focus, however wide or narrow of repentance here?

Good verse, BTW. Clear command.

 

[studier]

It’s not about a man named Calvin or a flower acronym. It’s about what the Bible says.

Or at least what some think the Bible says. But ultimately, yes, it's about what the Bible [actually] says and means apart from all of our speculations and arguments. I find comfort in knowing there is absolute Truth. I find humility in knowing I don't know or understand it all after decades of wanting and trying to. Or, as some say, the more I know, the more I know I don't know...

But I know Him sufficiently to know I'm His sibling as I know all of my true siblings in Christ do.

 

[selahsays]

Or at least what some think the Bible says. But ultimately, yes, it's about what the Bible [actually] says and means apart from all of our speculations and arguments. I find comfort in knowing there is absolute Truth. I find humility in knowing I don't know or understand it all after decades of wanting and trying to. Or, as some say, the more I know, the more I know I don't know...

But I know Him sufficiently to know I'm His sibling as I know all of my true siblings in Christ do.

I hope you will let the Bible speak for itself. The Bible is not what Calvin says; so then, stop obsessing about Calvin. What does the Bible say? It is written.

 

[CS1]

The problem was not John Calvin. The problem was the "ism: associated with his teaching. The over-emphasis on the "Elect" or Election
is man's Selection of who is or is not saved? That is the game no man should be playing.

Faith, hope, and Love these three. Remain, the greatest is Love. Yet our Calvinist elites have changed the elect of God to the Selection of man.

 

[studier]

I hope you will let the Bible speak for itself. The Bible is not what Calvin says; so then, stop obsessing about Calvin. What does the Bible say? It is written.

Your hope is realized. I left the systematic teachings of men a few decades ago and simply settled into studying the Text in Christ in Spirit. My opinion is that there is truth and error in any and every system, be it Reformed or another - there is simply truth and error in every one of us.

At this point, I prefer not to discuss any systematic theology and just deal with Scripture(s), preferably one at a time rather than a barrage of verses someone has been taught as a system.

Beyond that, as I said in a post recently, it's not just "what the Bible says", but also what it means when it says. We can all read what's written. We're not all that good at explaining it. Moses spoke of putting things in the mind and in the mouth. If we understand something we can explain it. Try to explain something you don't fully understand succinctly without rambling.

 

[Mem]

You may be one of the first ones I've seen express this understanding.

How do you derive this from Scripture? Were you taught this or did you come to this understanding apart from men's teaching?

I may consider man's opinion, but I've drawn my own understanding from examining scripture rather than assuming I cannot know unless some other man tells me. To me, it seems to logically follow, if God commanded all people to repent and come to the knowledge of Jesus, then disobeying that commandment amounts to unbelief, and comes from unbelief and, unless one repents and turns back to (re)consider that Jesus is Lord, his end is no life because this is where unbelief leads because the only life in in the Lord.

 

[studier]

I may consider man's opinion, but I've drawn my own understanding from examining scripture rather than assuming I cannot know unless some other man tells me. To me, it seems to logically follow, if God commanded all people to repent and come to the knowledge of Jesus, then disobeying that commandment amounts to unbelief, and comes from unbelief and, unless one repents and turns back to (re)consider that Jesus is Lord, his end is no life because this is where unbelief leads because the only life is in the Lord.

You and I share the same thinking you express in your first sentence.

Again, and not to be repetitive, but your logic is not the norm in my experience, which at times baffles me, until I sit back and remember that it's ultimately His Word and His Spirit that makes things clear when and where He chooses to do so.

And what you express, nicely BTW, succinctly and logically in line with the Word as I have come to see it, seems to me to be very basic logic. I did not see this simple, logical truth until I had my fill with all the denominational and systematics disagreements and determined to just let the Text, or better, let God speak for Himself, including letting Him define many important words Himself by the ways He uses them throughout His Word.

Thank you for your insights. They're refreshing.

I changed one typo at the end because I'd like to see this apart from my eye catching it as I reread it.

 

[Mem]

I changed one typo at the end because I'd like to see this apart from my eye catching it as I reread it.

An editor would greatly benefit me so, for the sake of my readers. Thank you so very much!
I wish I could do this fulltime, but I'm always in a hurry to go to work. God bless your day.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Thanks for clarifying. Our thinking is similar to some degree. I don't adhere to any specific system. For me at this point, it's a verse by verse in context matter with as much light as I have on the whole counsel of God. I simply do not think I need to fall in line with men and their systems of interpretation, not anymore.

I agree and the Bible tells us we are judged individually so I want to be judged by the Holy Spirit's interpretation to me rather than man made doctrine set in stone.

But the normal counter to this is that God is also absolutely Righteous and Just and Jesus Christ hated lawlessness. It's unbalanced to place any of His attributes above another or others. This is a theological concept I do agree with.

But history and the entirety of the Text shows us He does in fact kill men and has a place He will consign His enemies to - both angelic and human. There is more than one way to make a mockery of God and we likely all do so along the way.

I will answer both of these quotes with the same response.

Let's look at those men God killed.

The Flood of Noah
God still gave them 120 years warning while Noah built the Ark and preached the Flood was coming (Mercy is being displayed to the unrighteous)

Pharaoh and Egypt
God sent Moses 10 times to give fair warning and Signs before eventually killing all of the military (Mercy is being displayed to the unrighteous)

Moses/Joshua wars
These were mostly Nephilim, remnants of the Noah's Flood, who continued to attack God's people (They had chance after chance to accept God and stop their attack on God's people) (look at Rahab. She is an example of what these others like Amalekites/other "ites" could have done but refused and rejected God)

We can go down the list here of people being warned by God (Mercy) and they continue to reject God.

God gave them what they wanted. Eternity away from Him.

 

[studier]

An editor would greatly benefit me so, for the sake of my readers. Thank you so very much!
I wish I could do this fulltime, but I'm always in a hurry to go to work. God bless your day.

Looks like most of us could use editors. If I look back at my posts, it looks like keys are missing from my keyboard at times. Certainly can't be my typing...

I wish you had more time also. It looks like you've come to some interesting conclusions.

 

[studier]

We can go down the list here of people being warned by God (Mercy) and they continue to reject God.

God gave them what they wanted. Eternity away from Him.

And He righteously and justly killed some of them and assigned to men the same responsibility of certain capital punishments. As I said, all of His attributes work perfectly together.

 

[Inquisitor]

@Inquisitor : So you're not a Calvinist, then?

I follow the script Paul presented and Peter confirmed what Paul wrote was doctrine.

I will not belong to any church denomination or for that matter, any interpretation of the scripture.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

Only the shed blood of Jesus Christ can atone for our appalling bad behavior.

Paul warned the Gentiles that they could be grafted out just as the Jews had been (Romans 11).

Nor do I believe that mankind has a perfect free will.

According to Paul the mechanism of our salvation was a mystery.

Romans 11
For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches,
both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

 

[studier]

Only the shed blood of Jesus Christ can atone for our appalling bad behavior.

So true at minimum. Can you imagine how much He has to advocate for us based solely upon our appalling bad behavior on these forums?

Good comment.