Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

I am not a Calvinist and I know that if I were to die this moment I would go to Heaven where God is at because I am saved.

@FollowerofShiloh : Great comment!!

 

[Inquisitor]

Calvinism is the biblical doctrine of salvation, properly known as the Doctrines of Grace, being a total work of the Godhead in saving sinners chosen by God not because of who they are or anything they have done but solely upon His grace. This doctrine was not unique to Calvin and was found in Augustine before him and was the bedrock of the Reformation.

About a hundred years afterwards, some rose up to question this doctrine, they were followers of Arminius and were called Arminians. Their doctrine was tested at the Synod of Dordt with five questions and found to be the same heresy as the Pelagians who did not understand the true nature of man after the Fall.

The answers to their five questions were addressed as five answers which is commonly called the five points of Calvinism today, listed with biblical verse proofs below.

Sadly, the majority who call themselves Christians today side with the man-centred doctrine of the Arminians who rob God of the glory of His salvation and give it to the supposed free will and choice of men.

View attachment 263913

You have made a serious mistake.

You stated, "Calvinism is the biblical doctrine of salvation".

Here is the simplest statement of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

How can Calvinism possibly be the doctrine of salvation?

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart
that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Seriously maximar, what has Calvinism got to do with salvation?

Just confess Jesus Christ, the alpha and the omega, of everything that CHRISTianity proclaims.

 

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

@Inquisitor : So you're not a Calvinist, then?

 

[Mem]

I believe that anyone can "see" the Father, as Jesus revealed Him to the world, and once we do, that is the moment we know Him as He knows us.

 

[Mem]

@NEWTOCHRISTIANITY, my comment surprises you. Have you not yet come to know God as Father?

 

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

@NEWTOCHRISTIANITY, my comment surprises you. Have you not yet come to know God as Father?

@Mem : Yes I have; Sorry, I just got a bit confused with your wording; but I understand what you mean, now.

 

[Mem]

It awes to think that the Father laid down the life of His Son in order to raise me up with Him, as His daughter.

I do wish my writing style were a lot easier to read .

 

[Evmur]

Bad doctrine, made up by a bad person. That's really all you need to know, unless you're a history nerd (like me). If you're a history nerd, there are plenty of resources and directions to resources on John Calvin and Calvinism available on the web.

If that were so then you need to explain how Calvinism has produced such a multitude of truly lovely Christians and I might add some of the very greatest preachers. Bunyan and Spurgeon come to mind.

Calvin was a great theologian ... he just made a mistake.

 

[studier]

You said, "there is not one verse that speaks of believing the Gospel - believing that Jesus is the Christ - that does not include this concept of also obeying it - obeying Him".

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

See there are many verses that proclaim that belief (faith) in Christ alone.

Your positional salvation in Christ was implemented through grace, not by your works.

Salvation is a gift and so is your righteousness, gifts given to you.

Of course, your expected to be obedient to His command to love others.

Your good works are accomplished through you by the Holy Spirit.

Your not the one doing the heavy lifting.

The glory belongs to Christ alone.

Thanks, but this is more Scripture I'm well aware of. Can you address what I posit about 1 John3:23? Has God commanded men to believe in the name of His Son?

If I'm correct about 1 John, then what I said can affect how we read all verses that speak of Biblical Faith/Belief.

 

[ResidentAlien]

If I'm correct about 1 John, then what I said can affect how we read all verses that speak of Biblical Faith/Belief.

I'm curious how you read this verse in context and come up with the idea that it's talking about a command to all men to believe? If I understand your previous comments, I think we basically agree about Calvinism; however, I'm just curious about why you reach this conclusion about 1 John 3:23.

 

[studier]

Even though I mentioned Provisionism, I really do not adhere to any one specific doctrine.

Thanks for clarifying. Our thinking is similar to some degree. I don't adhere to any specific system. For me at this point, it's a verse by verse in context matter with as much light as I have on the whole counsel of God. I simply do not think I need to fall in line with men and their systems of interpretation, not anymore.

We know God is Love, Merciful, and full of Grace

But the normal counter to this is that God is also absolutely Righteous and Just and Jesus Christ hated lawlessness. It's unbalanced to place any of His attributes above another or others. This is a theological concept I do agree with.

Acts 17 tells us that everyone created from Adam is the Offspring of God. Some doctrines have God killing His own Offspring to an Eternal Hell for His Glory. But that does not describe the God of Love, Mercy, and Grace at all. And that same doctrine claims to follow 5 doctrines of Grace but their god is killing his own offspring all day long. How can their god be Grace while killing most of his own offspring? They have made a complete mockery of God.

But history and the entirety of the Text shows us He does in fact kill men and has a place He will consign His enemies to - both angelic and human. There is more than one way to make a mockery of God and we likely all do so along the way.

 

[studier]

Even though I mentioned Provisionism, I really do not adhere to any one specific doctrine.

Thanks for clarifying. Our thinking is similar to some degree. I don't adhere to any specific system. For me at this point, it's a verse by verse in context matter with as much light as I have on the whole counsel of God. I simply do not think I need to fall in line with men and their systems of interpretation, not anymore.

We know God is Love, Merciful, and full of Grace

But the normal counter to this is that God is also absolutely Righteous and Just and Jesus Christ hated lawlessness. It's unbalanced to place any of His attributes above another or others. This is a theological concept I do agree with.

Acts 17 tells us that everyone created from Adam is the Offspring of God. Some doctrines have God killing His own Offspring to an Eternal Hell for His Glory. But that does not describe the God of Love, Mercy, and Grace at all. And that same doctrine claims to follow 5 doctrines of Grace but their god is killing his own offspring all day long. How can their god be Grace while killing most of his own offspring? They have made a complete mockery of God.

But history and the entirety of the Text shows us He does in fact kill men and has a place He will consign His enemies to - both angelic and human. There is more than one way to make a mockery of God and we likely all do so along the way.

 

[selahsays]

If that were so then you need to explain how Calvinism has produced such a multitude of truly lovely Christians and I might add some of the very greatest preachers. Bunyan and Spurgeon come to mind.

Calvin was a great theologian ... he just made a mistake.

Could you tell us what it is? I personally can’t accept two of the claims of the TULIP acronym. Thank ye kindly.

 

[studier]

@FollowerofShiloh : So, you're not saying that we have to be Calvinists, to be saved, are you?

I told you what would happen if you start focusing on Calvinism. You're probably not as new as your ID says. You're at least old enough to obviously have some opinions formed and to express them with emojis.

 

[studier]

Calvinism is the biblical doctrine of salvation, properly known as the Doctrines of Grace, being a total work of the Godhead in saving sinners chosen by God not because of who they are or anything they have done but solely upon His grace. This doctrine was not unique to Calvin and was found in Augustine before him and was the bedrock of the Reformation.

About a hundred years afterwards, some rose up to question this doctrine, they were followers of Arminius and were called Arminians. Their doctrine was tested at the Synod of Dordt with five questions and found to be the same heresy as the Pelagians who did not understand the true nature of man after the Fall.

The answers to their five questions were addressed as five answers which is commonly called the five points of Calvinism today, listed with biblical verse proofs below.

Sadly, the majority who call themselves Christians today side with the man-centred doctrine of the Arminians who rob God of the glory of His salvation and give it to the supposed free will and choice of men.

View attachment 263913

I see this surprises @NEWTOCHRISTIANITY . It shouldn't be surprising to anybody to see that a system initiated from Calvin's works about 500 years ago and having had all these centuries to be considered and developed would have this amount of Scriptural detail to claim as substantiation.

So, start analyzing it all and see how well you can argue against it, assuming you will consider this as being something necessary to redeem your time doing.

 

[studier]

maxamir apparently characterizes not being Calvinist as "Those who consistently have faith in their faith rather than a God given faith in the person and wok of Christ"
but it seems a better characterization would be "those who place their faith in the person and work of Christ". this is how Calvinism couches limited atonement. The claim is that no one can have faith unless God wills it. Yet scripture says that God is not willing that anyone should perish, so it would follow that if anyone does perish, it is not God's will. In my view, unbelief is disobeying God's commandment to believe in Christ which is believing in the God as Father because that is Who Jesus revealed as God to the world. So, in my view, "unless the Father draws you," means that we come to the Father (not just "God") through the Son, by the Spirit, hence Salvation, by Grace through Faith. That is, the means to God is through God, by God, and we've only to believe and trust that as true.

You may be one of the first ones I've seen express this understanding.

How do you derive this from Scripture? Were you taught this or did you come to this understanding apart from men's teaching?

 

[studier]

I'm curious how you read this verse in context and come up with the idea that it's talking about a command to all men to believe? If I understand your previous comments, I think we basically agree about Calvinism; however, I'm just curious about why you reach this conclusion about 1 John 3:23.

Thanks for asking.

To begin with, 1 John is a mixture of instruction to Christians re: abiding in fellowship with God and one another, while also taking Christians back to foundational instruction on unbelief such as the section on antichrist being a denial that Jesus is the Christ and thus a rejection of both the Father and the Son. Then a command follows from John to abide in the truth of who Jesus is (1 John 2:22-25).

So, contextually, which is your question, this alone would make me begin to see reason for God's command to believe in the name of His Son as a command to all of humanity and not just a command being made to Christians.

Then, continuing contextually, 1 John 3:7-10 discusses being a child of God born from God vs. being a child of the devil. So, once again, John is mixing instruction to Christians re: sinning, and drawing it back to a comparison with unbelief.

I'll continue on another post as I somehow hit post and this system limits our editing time.

 

[cv5]

maxamir apparently characterizes not being Calvinist as "Those who consistently have faith in their faith rather than a God given faith in the person and wok of Christ"

It is too bad that the quintessential type provided by Christ to teach us is lost on the Church today.
And under scrutiny, the hyper-Calvinists are dead wrong....obviously.

Unbelief is willfully refusing to drink the cup of marriage betrothal offered by Christ Jesus, likewise the cup symbolizing the entering into the New Covenant.

These cups....

Luk 22:17
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:20
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

How many people do you know that make a free will choice to refuse the offer of marriage (and redemption) that the Bridegroom has made also of His own free will (and at great cost and Personal sacrifice)?
Furthermore, how many can plead ignorance at this point in history? Bibles are FREELY available, and there are living breathing Israelites right now in the land of Israel.

IMO God always has a witness, and is always calling. Its just that few care to respond.

Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[cv5]

the true nature of man after the Fall.

Adam chose to sin (a wrong choice) of his own free will.....WHILE HE WAS SINLESS AND PERFECT in full fellowship with God.

And THEN, Adam chose to do the RIGHT THING.....by preventing Eve from eating from the tree of life, and refusing to eat from the tree of life himself AFTER HE FELL. And then did the RIGHT THING by testifying TRUTHFULLY (as did the Woman) at the trial of Satan.

Which of course demolishes this "total depravity" nonsense once and for all.

 

[Evmur]

Could you tell us what it is? I personally can’t accept two of the claims of the TULIP acronym. Thank ye kindly.

In a double word Double Predestination. Limited Atonement [the L of TULIP] is set to shore up Calvin' s doctrine on double predestination.

Predestination and Election should not be applied to salvation at all, our predestination and election is unto the church, to be the body of Christ, the people of God. it is not exclusive to others being saved it is inclusive to others being saved.

It makes the WIDER mercy possible.