Salvation is a Free Gift.

[Cameron143]

Please forgive me. This question was meant for Cameron143 not you. My error totally.
I suspect Cameron143 does not want to answer your question because of the absurdity of accepting such a notion.

I will try to pay more attention to who I am replying to.

If you don't believe my answers, why ask me questions?
I'll repeat...I'm not a Calvinist. Never studied about him or his works. I've come to my own conclusions, just as you have. But many here who aren't able to discuss ideas will label others rather than work through the arguments with scripture. They do this because it's easier to label someone and dismiss them than it is to lovingly give an answer for the hope that is within them. Love actually comes with a price. Labelers aren't willing to love as Jesus has loved them.
So you can label me and dismiss me, or you can put on Christ. But you can't do both.

 

[Magenta]

There is a big difference between fearing God and fearing repercussions from our actions. Fear of outcomes is a natural unsettling about ourselves. Fear of God is a supernatural fear that isn't dreadful, but communicates understanding and wisdom to it's recipient.
There's more if you want to go deeper, but it definitely doesn't come all at once and is part of salvation.

Since fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, it would seem no believer escapes this. No doubt
it varies in intensity from person to person. Perhaps to you it was hardly anything. For me it was
immediate and overwhelming. I don't know what you mean to bring fear of repercussions into
the convo. The result of remaining in unbelief is pretty much known by all, even if the beliefs
around it vary widely. Is that the result of actions you refer to? Fear of burning in hell?
Fear of punishment? Because that is exactly the type of fear that perfect love casts out.
And as we agree, it does not come right away.

1 John 4:18

 

[PaulThomson]

Jhn 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jhn 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The Comforter, also known as the Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit not only comforts believers, but he also "reproves the world" as the scriptura says. He reproved Felix of righteousness, "temperance"(refraining from sin) and judgment to come. Those three elements "sin righteousness and judgement" were presented to him, through Paul, and Felix rejected it. It appears that you are rejecting what I'm saying because you are Calvinistic in your doctrine.

In calvinism regeneration precedes faith, and gnosis precedes biblical interpretation., and tradition trumps context.

 

[PaulThomson]

I'm not a Calvinist, so that argument won't work. And He trembled because he remained under the wrath of God. That is the natural estate of man. Had his heart been circumcised, his response would have been different.

Which of the five pillars of calvinism (TULIP) do you reject?

 

[Cameron143]

Since fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, it would seem no believer escapes this. No doubt
it varies in intensity from person to person. Perhaps to you it was hardly anything. For me it was
immediate and overwhelming. I don't know what you mean to bring fear of repercussions into
the convo. The result of remaining in unbelief is pretty much known by all, even if the beliefs
around it vary widely. Is that the result of actions you refer to? Fear of burning in hell?

I was making a distinction between a natural and supernatural fear. Both involve a reality of sin and hell. But the former remains in dread having not received understanding that God has extended grace and considers only what their transgression means for them. The latter becomes sorrowful over their sin and remorseful over having offended God.

 

[brightfame52]

How does it feel to be so incredibly impotent and not been able to change the minds of anyone who knows how you twist scripture?


Why do you keep ignoring the verse before 2:14?

Verse 13 which things we also speak not in words taught by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit explaining spiritual things to spiritual men.

That is NOT PREACHING the Gospel, it's explaining Spiritual things that verse 14 cannot understand.

So the Gospel preached is different and can be understood by ALL WHO HEAR.

A spiritually dead person can hear the Gospel but he cant hear it with Spiritual discernment and understanding 2 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

A spiritually dead person can hear the Gospel but he cant hear it with Spiritual discernment and understanding 2 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned

Don't sweat it, God knows how you twist His Word and that verse 14 relates only to verse 13.
That's my comfort is that God knows all of the times you manipulate His meaning.
Do YOU even ask for forgiveness?
We all know what Jesus says to workers of iniquity on Judgement Day

 

[Cameron143]

Which of the five pillars of calvinism (TULIP) do you reject?

That depends on the person's understanding who is asking. By asking the question the way you have, you have chosen to employ the same tactic as others. You slyly associate me with Calvinism. If you want to know what I believe, state a doctrine, define it, and ask my understanding of it. I'll tell you.

 

[brightfame52]

Don't sweat it, God knows how you twist His Word and that verse 14 relates only to verse 13.
That's my comfort is that God knows all of the times you manipulate His meaning.
Do YOU even ask for forgiveness?
We all know what Jesus says to workers of iniquity on Judgement Day

A spiritually dead person can hear the Gospel but he cant hear it with Spiritual discernment and understanding 2 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

A spiritually dead person can hear the Gospel but he cant hear it with Spiritual discernment and understanding 2 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned

Don't sweat it, God knows how you twist His Word and that verse 14 relates only to verse 13.
That's my comfort is that God knows all of the times you manipulate His meaning.
Do YOU even ask for forgiveness?
We all know what Jesus says to workers of iniquity on Judgement Day

 

[PaulThomson]

That depends on the person's understanding who is asking. By asking the question the way you have, you have chosen to employ the same tactic as others. You slyly associate me with Calvinism. If you want to know what I believe, state a doctrine, define it, and ask my understanding of it. I'll tell you.

Do you affirm any or all of the concepts of Total Inability (No one can believe in the death and resurrection of Christ unto justification until after God regenerates his spirit), Unconditional Election (Before creating the world God chose who He will and who He will not regenerate so that they can and will believe unto salvation); Limited Atonement (Jesus paid only for the sins of those whom God chose before creation to save); Irresistible Grace (Anyone God regenerates cannot but believe in the Lord Jesus unto justification); and or Perseverance of the saints (Everyone God regenerates will continue to believe in Christ unto salvation until and beyond their own death forever).

 

[Cameron143]

Do you affirm any or all of the concepts of Total Inability (No one can believe in the death and resurrection of Christ unto justification until after God regenerates his spirit), Unconditional Election (Before creating the world God chose who He will and who He will not regenerate so that they can and will believe unto salvation); Limited Atonement (Jesus paid only for the sins of those whom God chose before creation to save); Irresistible Grace (Anyone God regenerates cannot but believe in the Lord Jesus unto justification); and or Perseverance of the saints (Everyone God regenerates will continue to believe in Christ unto salvation until and beyond their own death forever).

Let's go one at a time. I'll do the first one, if you desire to ask the others in succession, I'll answer.

Can the natural man in a fallen estate believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ?

Yes. Fallen man has all the same faculties Adam possessed before the fall. He still has a mind, a heart, and a will. All three are still operational; however, man now lacks spiritual understanding. These three operate solely in the natural realm, unaffected by spiritual reality. This is what it is teaching in 1 Corinthians 2:14. Because of this, his belief is of no value to him. As Hebrews 4:2 explains, it is not profitable to him because it is not mixed with faith. Mere belief is natural. Faith comes supernaturally by the word of God.

So in short, man can believe, but it is only profitable to Him if it is mixed with faith. Only the word and the Spirit can produce faith.

 

[rogerg]

Let's go one at a time. I'll do the first one, if you desire to ask the others in succession, I'll answer.

Can the natural man in a fallen estate believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ?

Yes. Fallen man has all the same faculties Adam possessed before the fall. He still has a mind, a heart, and a will. All three are still operational; however, man now lacks spiritual understanding. These three operate solely in the natural realm, unaffected by spiritual reality. This is what it is teaching in 1 Corinthians 2:14. Because of this, his belief is of no value to him. As Hebrews 4:2 explains, it is not profitable to him because it is not mixed with faith. Mere belief is natural. Faith comes supernaturally by the word of God.

So in short, man can believe, but it is only profitable to Him if it is mixed with faith. Only the word and the Spirit can produce faith.

Excellent! Very well said, Cameron143.

 

[Magenta]

I was making a distinction between a natural and supernatural fear. Both involve a reality of sin and hell. But the former remains in dread having not received understanding that God has extended grace and considers only what their transgression means for them. The latter becomes sorrowful over their sin and remorseful over having offended God.

I don't think people who fear getting caught for lying, for instance, worry about burning in hell for it.

 

[Cameron143]

Excellent! Very well said, Cameron143.

Thanks. This is why I think it's important to speak to individual doctrine rather than lump them all together under some label which are easily dismissed without consideration ever given.

 

[Cameron143]

I don't think people who fear getting caught for lying, for instance, worry about burning in hell for it.

At any given point I agree. But we were considering Agrippa after Paul had shared the gospel and exhorted him to believe.

 

[rogerg]

Thanks. This is why I think it's important to speak to individual doctrine rather than lump them all together under some label which are easily dismissed without consideration ever given.

Absolutely correct and very astute observation.

 

[Magenta]

At any given point I agree. But we were considering Agrippa after Paul had shared the gospel and exhorted him to believe.

It may have started there but the Biblical maxim of fear being the beginning of wisdom applies to all.

 

[Cameron143]

It may have started there but the Biblical maxim of fear being the beginning of wisdom applies to all.

I don't disagree, but fear of God always includes an element of reverence. This is what I was trying to distinguish earlier. The fear of the natural man centers on himself. It isn't a fear of God, but a fear of repercussions.

 

[PaulThomson]

Let's go one at a time. I'll do the first one, if you desire to ask the others in succession, I'll answer.

Can the natural man in a fallen estate believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ?

Yes. Fallen man has all the same faculties Adam possessed before the fall. He still has a mind, a heart, and a will. All three are still operational; however, man now lacks spiritual understanding. These three operate solely in the natural realm, unaffected by spiritual reality. This is what it is teaching in 1 Corinthians 2:14. Because of this, his belief is of no value to him. As Hebrews 4:2 explains, it is not profitable to him because it is not mixed with faith. Mere belief is natural. Faith comes supernaturally by the word of God.

So in short, man can believe, but it is only profitable to Him if it is mixed with faith. Only the word and the Spirit can produce faith.

Okay. So you affirm the first petal, Total inability. What about Unconditional election: before creating the world God chose whom He will so that they can and will believe unto salvation; and whom He will not regenerate so they cannot believe unto salvation?.