Your argument is completely void of the context at hand concerning translation. You're on your own separate tangent.
There will be no Rapture!!!
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The Elders are part of the Divine Council so they do not need to be saved. They've been in Heaven before God created Earth. Like I mentioned already, I don't see any evidence of you being educated through Mishnah where this is discussed in great detail. Anyone who has participated in Mishnah knows without doubt about the Divine Councils. Anyone who does not truly lacks knowledge of the Torah and Tanakh.
I saw no need to go any further into the video when we know the early Church Fathers he is referencing can only be the Disciples of John who authored Revelation. Clearly they have first hand knowledge and present no reason to doubt their understanding on the topic. The only way to refute them is to accept a Theory that's a little over 200 years old when we have 1800 years of established Church History claiming something else. Are we to throw away 1800 years of truth for 200 years that some Heretic jotted onto a piece of paper?[I suggest that the listeners of that video I supplied at LINK listen on a bit further than the 3-min mark]
What I believe he was saying in his video was, more like:
the footnotes in many Bibles say,
...most ancient authorities agree that the word [in v.9] is them or they...
[and]
...most early manuscripts omit us in v.9 and read they and them instead of us in v.10.
(in either case, my understanding was that he is referring to the "manuscript evidence"... per the "footnotes" in many Bibles)
Then he gives explanation as to why this "footnote" information (supplied in many Bibles) is not actually factual.
That starts close to the 3-min mark and following.
[as I understand it, he did not make reference to the ECF; I tried looking up the same page of the writings of Chrysostom that I'd referred to just the other day (as you did), and found NOTHING that was written (or presented there) covering the Book of Revelation by him... for example]
As I understand it, Cyprian (200s) has the word "US" in verse 9 (Rv5:9) in his commentary on Revelation.
If I understand you (in your quotes above), how do you explain this [seeming contradiction, on your part]?
J Seiss (Lectures on the Apocalypse):
"Some critics and expositors have rejected "Greek - HEMAS," translated "US," for the reason that it is omitted in the Codex Alexandrinus. The Codex Sinaiticus, however, which was discovered in 1860, and which is of equal antiquity and authority with the Codex Alexandrinus, contains first person plural (US). The Codex Basilianus (also called Codex Vaticanus) contains it. The Latin, Coptic or Memphitic, and Armenian, which are of great value, all contain it. And so do all other manuscripts and versions. And to discredit it simply and only because it does not appear in that one single Codex of Alexandria, is most unreasonable and unjust to the weight of authority for its retention."
"Some critics and expositors have rejected "Greek - HEMAS," translated "US," for the reason that it is omitted in the Codex Alexandrinus. The Codex Sinaiticus, however, which was discovered in 1860, and which is of equal antiquity and authority with the Codex Alexandrinus, contains first person plural (US). The Codex Basilianus (also called Codex Vaticanus) contains it. The Latin, Coptic or Memphitic, and Armenian, which are of great value, all contain it. And so do all other manuscripts and versions. And to discredit it simply and only because it does not appear in that one single Codex of Alexandria, is most unreasonable and unjust to the weight of authority for its retention."
Are we still talking about the same thing here: the Subject that Hocking was addressing in his video I linked? Coz he was essentially covering the Subject of the MANUSCRIPT EVIDENCE regarding the word "US" in Rev5:9
It sounds to me (from the last part of your post I've quoted, above) that you've gone off on an entirely different Subject from the one I was discussing (when I posted the LINK to the video).
On what basis? Telling us what you believe lacks any substance for convincing another, versus what's actually stated within scripture that any other reasonable person can read for themselves and see the correlation. I don't know who among the post apostolic gang you're basing that belief, but it's worthy of exploration from the scriptures if you can state the emphatic and empirical foundation for such a stated belief. Those men were not infallible, and given that they had nothing of any real solidity in the language of scripture at which to point, other than to point to some seemingly incomprehensible "council" in eternity...that's just too shabby and unconvincing.
MM
And you say that in the face of them openly and precisely stating that the Blood of the Lamb had redeemed THEM, not someone else, but THEMSELVES, from every tongue, kindred and nation? That's nonsense! That's nothing but an accusation against them for not stating precisely what they meant. Where is your proof?
Don't you see what you're doing here? Do you even care? That's so similar to the tactics I see emanating from other camps like the Mormons! They too point at scripture, claiming it doesn't mean what it says in key places, while pointing at other sources outside of scripture to justify such claims. Do you see how this looks so very similar in tactical deflection? The Mormons believe they have special knowledge that sets them apart from all others, a special revelation, rooted in the writings of people who are known to not have been inspired writers.
Come on! Let's get real, here, shall we?
MM
Oh, yeah, I almost forgot...the textual dodge, stacking a couple of older texts against a plethora of texts that do not show that variant, which is a constellation of more than 6000 manuscripts. Dude, that's a system of thought that I just can't quite say is a good measure for authenticity in relation to the original autographs. But, hey, people choose what they want to believe, even when it flies in the face of sheer numbers.
MM
MM
Divine Council...here is one website's statement that agrees with this understanding:
"There is good biblical evidence that God has a ruling council of spirit beings with whom He consults. Of course, God would not need to have a divine council, He is certainly capable of doing things on His own; but having such a council is in harmony with His loving nature and His desire to work together with His creation." (https://spiritandtruthonline.org/gods-divine-council/)
The rest of the article goes on to explain about the many cultic and pantheistic religions that also hold to this idea, and that there is allegedly some truth to those beliefs. It also points to some verses in various places, but it never explains how those 24 elders in Revelation directly corollate to some Heavenly council. Nowhere in Revelation do we see the Lord consulting with the 24, nor even asking anything of them. It strains at the outer limits of credulity that one would think the Lord needs some council to interact with His own creation, or to govern the things of Heaven. This distraction away from His Majesty and perfection in all things and in every way, we are given nothing throughout scripture that I can find whereby the Lord established or had need of such within the contexts of what I'm seeing claimed throughout multiple articles online.
Is it wrong to question such a need, given that doing so actually elevates even higher the glory of the Lord in all the perfection of His Power, Intelligence, and even omniscience, omnipotence, et al? No. I don't see that it does. This concept seems to be more of an idea that brings the Lord down a notch or two from the loftiness of His absolute Majesty. His perfect caring for His creation, and those within His creation for whom He laid down His own life on this earth in the flesh, for Yahshuah is come in the flesh, there seems to be something amiss here that I have yet to place my finger.
MM
"There is good biblical evidence that God has a ruling council of spirit beings with whom He consults. Of course, God would not need to have a divine council, He is certainly capable of doing things on His own; but having such a council is in harmony with His loving nature and His desire to work together with His creation." (https://spiritandtruthonline.org/gods-divine-council/)
The rest of the article goes on to explain about the many cultic and pantheistic religions that also hold to this idea, and that there is allegedly some truth to those beliefs. It also points to some verses in various places, but it never explains how those 24 elders in Revelation directly corollate to some Heavenly council. Nowhere in Revelation do we see the Lord consulting with the 24, nor even asking anything of them. It strains at the outer limits of credulity that one would think the Lord needs some council to interact with His own creation, or to govern the things of Heaven. This distraction away from His Majesty and perfection in all things and in every way, we are given nothing throughout scripture that I can find whereby the Lord established or had need of such within the contexts of what I'm seeing claimed throughout multiple articles online.
Is it wrong to question such a need, given that doing so actually elevates even higher the glory of the Lord in all the perfection of His Power, Intelligence, and even omniscience, omnipotence, et al? No. I don't see that it does. This concept seems to be more of an idea that brings the Lord down a notch or two from the loftiness of His absolute Majesty. His perfect caring for His creation, and those within His creation for whom He laid down His own life on this earth in the flesh, for Yahshuah is come in the flesh, there seems to be something amiss here that I have yet to place my finger.
MM
I'm not sure who the 24 elders are. They do sit on thrones though. And because of that some people say they sit as judges. That's all I've read so far, so I'm not going to say they are one thing or the other. All I can say is they exist and are esteemed enough by God to be sitting on thrones dressed in white and crowns on their heads. They also love and adore the Lord!
Isaiah 40:13-15
13 Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or [as] His counselor has taught Him?
14 With whom did He take counsel, and [who] instructed Him, And taught Him in the path of justice? Who taught Him knowledge, And showed Him the way of understanding?
15 Behold, the nations [are] as a drop in a bucket, And are counted as the small dust on the scales; Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.
Given how so very small the task of justice is in His Hands, and the vastness of His knowledge, this paints for us a portrait of One who is no need for counselors, neither here on earth nor above in Heaven.
The 24 elders are kings and priests, and the priests of Israel did not EVER presume to speak counsel to the Lord, but were subservient to His righteous Law in all things. Even the judges of Israel were subject to judging on the basis of an absolute system handed to them from the Lord, not some heavenly counsel.
You know, this seems to smack of the warped thoughts of religious men who have suggested, from within a very large but apostate Christian religion, that the Lord was/is too busy to handle the miniscule affairs of Heaven and this earth, and was/is therefore in need of counselors who handle the lesser affairs. (shaking head) This is such rubbish!
MM
13 Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or [as] His counselor has taught Him?
14 With whom did He take counsel, and [who] instructed Him, And taught Him in the path of justice? Who taught Him knowledge, And showed Him the way of understanding?
15 Behold, the nations [are] as a drop in a bucket, And are counted as the small dust on the scales; Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.
Given how so very small the task of justice is in His Hands, and the vastness of His knowledge, this paints for us a portrait of One who is no need for counselors, neither here on earth nor above in Heaven.
The 24 elders are kings and priests, and the priests of Israel did not EVER presume to speak counsel to the Lord, but were subservient to His righteous Law in all things. Even the judges of Israel were subject to judging on the basis of an absolute system handed to them from the Lord, not some heavenly counsel.
You know, this seems to smack of the warped thoughts of religious men who have suggested, from within a very large but apostate Christian religion, that the Lord was/is too busy to handle the miniscule affairs of Heaven and this earth, and was/is therefore in need of counselors who handle the lesser affairs. (shaking head) This is such rubbish!
MM
Let's show even more of the context of the above:
Isaiah 40:10-12
10 Behold, the Lord GOD shall come with a strong [hand], And His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, His reward [is] with Him, And His work before Him.
11 He (not they) will feed His flock like a shepherd; He will gather the lambs with His arm, And carry [them] in His bosom, [And] gently lead those who are with young.
12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, Measured heaven with a span And calculated the dust of the earth in a measure? Weighed the mountains in scales And the hills in a balance?
Wow! And this historic nonsense continues about His allegedly needing heavenly counsel in support of His Might...
What's next? What other denigrating things can be dredged up from corrupted texts? Appeals to antiquity seem to be the only basis for reliance upon those manuscripts, some of which are known to have been edited multiple times. Ah, and there are ancients who subscribe to that stuff, thus pitting group against group, when what it really boils down to is what one will choose to trust.
Me? I trust ONLY the Lord, not a bunch of dead dudes who were not chosen by God as inspired writers of the very word of God. We need NO man to teach us given that we have Holy Spirit as our ultimate Teacher, who will not teach us a lie, but is true.
Amen
MM
Isaiah 40:10-12
10 Behold, the Lord GOD shall come with a strong [hand], And His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, His reward [is] with Him, And His work before Him.
11 He (not they) will feed His flock like a shepherd; He will gather the lambs with His arm, And carry [them] in His bosom, [And] gently lead those who are with young.
12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, Measured heaven with a span And calculated the dust of the earth in a measure? Weighed the mountains in scales And the hills in a balance?
Wow! And this historic nonsense continues about His allegedly needing heavenly counsel in support of His Might...
What's next? What other denigrating things can be dredged up from corrupted texts? Appeals to antiquity seem to be the only basis for reliance upon those manuscripts, some of which are known to have been edited multiple times. Ah, and there are ancients who subscribe to that stuff, thus pitting group against group, when what it really boils down to is what one will choose to trust.
Me? I trust ONLY the Lord, not a bunch of dead dudes who were not chosen by God as inspired writers of the very word of God. We need NO man to teach us given that we have Holy Spirit as our ultimate Teacher, who will not teach us a lie, but is true.
Amen
MM
I believe as the Divine Council in Psalms 82 where they request God to
Arise, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are Your possession.
...is no different than telling God in Revelation 5
and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”
The Divine Council is definitely in both verses speaking about a 3rd party and not themselves.
Only in your selected translation do they say that. But in the oldest Text they say that for those on Earth and not of themselves.
But you clearly "cherry pick" translations to fit your idealism because only a couple of the many even are written like you present. So it took great effort to find them in order to falsely present them as truth. Which is obvious that you have done.
You clearly never attended Mishnah and on here presenting yourself as an Israelite.
The Jews have mastered the Torah and Tanakh and are more correct about the Word of God than anyone else.
For you to even argue against it proves you know nothing and have never been taught.
Had you been taught in Mishnah, you can easily take the English translation, even in their struggle with comprehension, and still see the teachings of Mishnah.
We should just stop debating one another.
I thought I was discussing with someone who had proper training.
I cherry pick? I already told you what they have found with those questionable texts. Dude, appeals to antiquity doesn't mean they are more correct than all the other thousands of manuscripts that contradict them. Antiquity doesn't always equate to being more correct. Platonic influences are clearly seen in that small number of older manuscripts. Edits are also known to have been done to them, so what you're appealing to is suspect to say the least.
MM
Bull! You are injecting the "Divine Counsel" into Revelation. It's not there organically.
MM
No, I am merely showing the words they use are similar to other examples in Council verses.