There will be no Rapture!!!

[Musicmaster]

Scientific Journals can be copied/pasted and literally no one would report anyone for copyright.

You have 1 excuse after another and oddly enough they're always made in order to support your specific view.

Excuse? Dude, you have not signed the documents I had to in order to get access, and as a man of integrity, I will abide by those agreements. Perhaps YOU wouldn't, but I will not break faith on the basis of winning at all costs. You won't do the homework, so it is what it is. Go for it, in whatever direction you choose in this pluralistic, unprincipled world and its influences in the lives that give themselves over to it.

MM

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I'm not sure who the 24 elders are. They do sit on thrones though. And because of that some people say they sit as judges. That's all I've read so far, so I'm not going to say they are one thing or the other.

All I can say is they exist and are esteemed enough by God to be sitting on thrones dressed in white and crowns on their heads. They also love and adore the Lord!

Right. The text states (in 4:4) "having been clothed in leukos himation"--the very same thing that was promised to believers ("shall be clothed [future-tense]") in previous chpt--so it only makes sense that 4:4 is showing the fulfillment of that very promise...

... and we already know about "crowns [stephanous]" as rewards / awards (Paul said in 2Tim4:8 that he would be awarded one "IN THAT DAY" [i.e. not the day of his DEATH], and "not to him only"... This pertains to the "BEMA" for rewards / awards)







[as to the "thrones," the way I understand it is that it also pertains to what we are told in 1Cor6:3[,14], "Know ye not that WE SHALL JUDGE ANGELS?"]

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Excuse? Dude, you have not signed the documents I had to in order to get access, and as a man of integrity, I will abide by those agreements. Perhaps YOU wouldn't, but I will not break faith on the basis of winning at all costs. You won't do the homework, so it is what it is. Go for it, in whatever direction you choose in this pluralistic, unprincipled world and its influences in the lives that give themselves over to it.

MM

I have signed documents that claim right to remove my personal belongings and jail time. Most Scientific Data is promoted well before theorized because in most things more proofs or clarification eventually tends to repeal current idealism's. But you continue like you are and I won't be taking what you say as truth any way.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I don't know if you've ever seen this guy, but I've watched Steven Anderson's videos, with him pounding the pulpit for added emphasis when his points were weak and groundless. When someone dared stand up to try and inject discussion with him in order to probe the unscriptural points he was making at the time, he resorted to demanding that the one daring to question him if that guy wanted to teach in his place, which was not at all something Steven was going to allow in the first place. Anderson can't handle discussion or debate. He only wants to sermonize his people into conformity.

Now, as to Revelation 3:3, please elaborate. I made a specific point from that text and its context, none of which points to pre-wrath for His coming for the Church that I can see.

Thanks

MM

I haven't read the other posts, but I sure agree with you about Anderson. Can't stand to watch him, so arrogant.

 

[Musicmaster]

Those older Tanakh manuscripts all speak about the Coming Messiah. They are a picture of Jesus before Jesus arrived onto the scene.

Well, our Orthodox Jewish brethren must not think so, because many of them expect Messiah to be a political figure who will catapult us up onto the top of the heap of this messed up world. The fact that they have missed the obvious so badly, we have yet to see what will prompt our brethren to jealousy, which I think will be the rapture.

The Messianic movement in Israel is an amazing thing, but it's mostly among the youth. The majority of the older generation in Israel is as stiff-necked as ever.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

The condition God applied to them made it impossible for them to understand even with all of the signs that were apparent. Paul even wrote to that condition...
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

You seem to just toss this all away like most Reform do.

You really need to re-read your own statements. You contradict yourself, and I haven't tossed anything away. If it were impossible for them to open their eyes and see the Truth, then the conversions to Yahshuah would not be taking place as it is today in Israel. Being a part of the missions going on in our homeland has shown to me that the blindness is not as solid and powerful as you seem to think.

Reformed? (rolling eyes to ceiling) That's mighty Gentile of you. This fixation for labeling is a typical Gentile practice throughout these forums. You really should set yourself apart from them in this practice.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I come from a lineage of Rabbis and it was my Grandfather who converted us to Christ. We have all the materials in our personal libraries so I am far from being concerned about your self proclamation towards your great achievements at any length.

Then that blindness does NOT make it impossible for them to see Christ!

Your self-contradictions make me wonder about the stability in the foundations of what you say you believe. On one hand you speak of the impossibilities surrounding the blindness upon us, then you speak of you grandfather bringing you to Christ. Where's the impossibility in it all if there are leaks in the barrel?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I have signed documents that claim right to remove my personal belongings and jail time. Most Scientific Data is promoted well before theorized because in most things more proofs or clarification eventually tends to repeal current idealism's. But you continue like you are and I won't be taking what you say as truth any way.

Please don't flatter yourself. I'm not at all concerned that you think as I do about eschatology or scientific journals or the scientific method. Having been in the field of science for decades now, I know how the process works quite well, and whatever journals you have access to, if those dispensaries allow the sharing of those journals, then that's their prerogative. My affiliations with the various archaeological societies appears to be quite different from the caliber of the sites you peruse...if any.

Suffice it to say that no whelp out there in the world is ever going to convince me that they know about all the specifics I have encountered and am involved, including agreements signed. Call it excuses or whatever. Please don't think that any of that will make a difference. It was wasted words on your part. Your little corner of the world in experiences does not define how all the rest of the world works. I have never applied that foolish thinking to you, so please don't try to apply it to me.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I haven't read the other posts, but I sure agree with you about Anderson. Can't stand to watch him, so arrogant.

The times that I watched him showed to me how weak his system of hermeneutics really is. He routinely tried painting his opponents with colors of stupidity, and his followers fall in lock step with him, not daring to contradict. The one guy who stood up in one of his meetings and dared call Steven out onto the carpet on one of his silly points ended up being escorted out, post haste, after being asked if HE wanted to take over the teaching, which you could tell Steven would never have allowed.

He's very animated and emotionally charismatic...a real go-getter, but his emotional instabilities betray the weaknesses in his understanding for him to have to pound on his pulpit for emphasis, and to fill in the gaps of his weak foundations that are very, very glaring to the practiced eye and ear for bull corn. The only reason I watched him at all was because of the spread of his influence among my Charismatic, Evangelical and Reformed Theology acquaintances.

MM

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

The times that I watched him showed to me how weak his system of hermeneutics really is. He routinely tried painting his opponents with colors of stupidity, and his followers fall in lock step with him, not daring to contradict. The one guy who stood up in one of his meetings and dared call Steven out onto the carpet on one of his silly points ended up being escorted out, post haste, after being asked if HE wanted to take over the teaching, which you could tell Steven would never have allowed.

He's very animated and emotionally charismatic...a real go-getter, but his emotional instabilities betray the weaknesses in his understanding for him to have to pound on his pulpit for emphasis, and to fill in the gaps of his weak foundations that are very, very glaring to the practiced eye and ear for bull corn. The only reason I watched him at all was because of the spread of his influence among my Charismatic, Evangelical and Reformed Theology acquaintances.

MM

It is truly sad to see people fall for these false teachers. My pastor was a longtime friend also before I started attending his church. But he always says " I don't know everything. If you have a question ask, and if I don't know it we'll search the Word together and find the answer." And that just shows me what kind of man of character he really is. He said to my hubby and I that if he's in a church that tries to get him out he leaves. He said maybe his ministry there was done, or it wasn't a good fit but he would never fight to stay in a church. That's mighty rare.

Anderson is wrong on so many issues I wouldn't know where to start to rebuke him. A lot of it is just pure nonsense and I have to wonder if just mostly his family and friends attend his church. Not that I can see him having a friend. A pastor that cannot be questioned or approached is a big red flag. Five minutes under his preaching I would have gotten up and left.

 

[Musicmaster]

It is truly sad to see people fall for these false teachers. My pastor was a longtime friend also before I started attending his church. But he always says " I don't know everything. If you have a question ask, and if I don't know it we'll search the Word together and find the answer." And that just shows me what kind of man of character he really is. He said to my hubby and I that if he's in a church that tries to get him out he leaves. He said maybe his ministry there was done, or it wasn't a good fit but he would never fight to stay in a church. That's mighty rare.

Anderson is wrong on so many issues I wouldn't know where to start to rebuke him. A lot of it is just pure nonsense and I have to wonder if just mostly his family and friends attend his church. Not that I can see him having a friend. A pastor that cannot be questioned or approached is a big red flag. Five minutes under his preaching I would have gotten up and left.

Yes indeed. His theology falls apart on the basis of his assuming that only the vial judgements are the "great wrath," even though Revelation 6, at the very beginning, after the sixth seal, is recognized by those on this earth at that time as being the wrath of Yah:

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

All of the tribulation is the Lord's wrath, especially given that just as many people die in the first half of the tribulation as that die in the second half.

Amillennialism has no footing since we can see that things are NOT getting better, and that children cannot place their hands into the nest of an asp and not be envenomated, etc. Mid and pre-wrath also go by the wayside in that they introduce more problems than they answer.

Good stuff.

MM

 

[Slimsumo]

There will indeed be a "rapture" which is the translation of living believers which happens at the resurrection, which happens at the coming of the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16)

 

[Musicmaster]

There will indeed be a "rapture" which is the translation of living believers which happens at the resurrection, which happens at the coming of the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16)

This is a good example of eisegetical hermeneutics.

MM

 

[Slimsumo]

This is a good example of eisegetical hermeneutics.

MM

Laughable. The verse is plain as day, and is not the only one of its kind. Are you mixing up "rapture" with "Pre-trib rapture" mayhaps?

 

[Musicmaster]

Laughable. The verse is plain as day, and is not the only one of its kind. Are you mixing up "rapture" with "Pre-trib rapture" mayhaps?

So, what you're saying is that verse 15 absolutely is the second coming, when His feet touch the ground and the mountain splits in half? I mean, you will have to tell me because it sounds like you're that the "coming of the Lord" is the second coming rather than the rapture.

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Well, our Orthodox Jewish brethren must not think so, because many of them expect Messiah to be a political figure who will catapult us up onto the top of the heap of this messed up world. The fact that they have missed the obvious so badly, we have yet to see what will prompt our brethren to jealousy, which I think will be the rapture.

The Messianic movement in Israel is an amazing thing, but it's mostly among the youth. The majority of the older generation in Israel is as stiff-necked as ever.

MM

They also purposefully ignored Isaiah 53.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You really need to re-read your own statements. You contradict yourself, and I haven't tossed anything away. If it were impossible for them to open their eyes and see the Truth, then the conversions to Yahshuah would not be taking place as it is today in Israel. Being a part of the missions going on in our homeland has shown to me that the blindness is not as solid and powerful as you seem to think.

Reformed? (rolling eyes to ceiling) That's mighty Gentile of you. This fixation for labeling is a typical Gentile practice throughout these forums. You really should set yourself apart from them in this practice.

MM

I am only presenting Scripture but I also believe like when Elijah thought he was the only believer and became depressed that God told him He had 7,000 Believers Elijah did not know about.

So there's always a Remnant.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Then that blindness does NOT make it impossible for them to see Christ!

Your self-contradictions make me wonder about the stability in the foundations of what you say you believe. On one hand you speak of the impossibilities surrounding the blindness upon us, then you speak of you grandfather bringing you to Christ. Where's the impossibility in it all if there are leaks in the barrel?

MM

Not at all.
I only am using the example of Scripture but also believe like when Elijah thought he was the only believer and became depressed that God told him He had 7,000 Believers Elijah did not know about.

So there's always a Remnant.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Please don't flatter yourself. I'm not at all concerned that you think as I do about eschatology or scientific journals or the scientific method. Having been in the field of science for decades now, I know how the process works quite well, and whatever journals you have access to, if those dispensaries allow the sharing of those journals, then that's their prerogative. My affiliations with the various archaeological societies appears to be quite different from the caliber of the sites you peruse...if any.

Suffice it to say that no whelp out there in the world is ever going to convince me that they know about all the specifics I have encountered and am involved, including agreements signed. Call it excuses or whatever. Please don't think that any of that will make a difference. It was wasted words on your part. Your little corner of the world in experiences does not define how all the rest of the world works. I have never applied that foolish thinking to you, so please don't try to apply it to me.

MM

We're discussing data from Church Fathers and you're acting like some of it is so scientific it has been purposefully hidden.

I believe you're more of a legend in your own mind than anything else.

 

[Slimsumo]

So, what you're saying is that verse 15 absolutely is the second coming, when His feet touch the ground and the mountain splits in half? I mean, you will have to tell me because it sounds like you're that the "coming of the Lord" is the second coming rather than the rapture.

MM

Yes, the rapture / resurrection occurs at the second coming, its evident from the passages surrounding it. There is only "ONE" second coming, not many.
Acts 1:11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”