Predestination is misunderstood...

[ForestGreenCook]

The passage

Ezekiel 18:27 King James Version (KJV)Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

So where is Jesus in the above text


well its when the father hands them to the son

secondly it's when Jesus forgives the chosen

thirdly the wicked refers to every lost soul.

do you believe this.

The scriptures in Ezekiel harmonize with the scriptures I posted in 5, 428. they are referencing spiritual Israel.

First: The Father gave the elect to his Son to be a sacrifice to redeem them from their sins. Those that the Father gave to his Son is spiritual Israel, which is Jacob's surname (Isiah 45:4)

Second: God's chosen elect were forgiven on the cross.

Thirdly: The wicked in Ezekiel has reference to Jacob/Israel which is spiritual Israel. Most of the times the scriptures refer to the wicked it is referencing the sinful nature of the elect.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The scriptures in Ezekiel harmonize with the scriptures I posted in 5, 428. they are referencing spiritual Israel.

First: The Father gave the elect to his Son to be a sacrifice to redeem them from their sins. Those that the Father gave to his Son is spiritual Israel, which is Jacob's surname (Isiah 45:4)

Second: God's chosen elect were forgiven on the cross.

Thirdly: The wicked in Ezekiel has reference to Jacob/Israel which is spiritual Israel. Most of the times the scriptures refer to the wicked it is referencing the sinful nature of the elect.

no wicked means wicked.

Sorry but I don't mind Calvinism amusing anymore after discovering tulip last month I've felt sick for a while coming here but I'm learning to cope

Gets theese muts aways from me please 😊

Stroll on 😊

 

[Dino246]

It was not used by family that I can remember, but it is a very good illustration of the point.

See how we can easily make a mess of doctrine when language is not understood in its greater context.

If this was in scripture Christians might think this idiom means "go kill yourself" or something.

English has a comparable idiom: "Break a leg!".

 

[Genez]

I don't think in terms of losing salvation. Salvation is from some things and to some things. If we fail to avail ourselves of some of the deliverance Jesus is providing and/or some of the blessings he is offering, we are forfeiting those benefits of receiving Him that we were given access to when we believed, for as long as we fail to avail ourselves of them. Salvation is a expansive smorgasbord of elements. And we are necessarily forfeiting them all or experiencing them all at any time.

Full salvation is being fully conformed to Jesus Christ. Being saved is the process of atonement, justification, sanctification and glorification that gets us there. Any step along the way is "being saved".

Got it....

First comes regeneration.
Having become forever "His property."

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, ​

who is in you, whom you have received from God? ​

You are not your own; you were bought at a price. ​

Therefore honor God with your bodies." 1 Corinthians 6:19-20​

​

After the initial Regeneration phase comes the training for it operational development.
The training from God in how to use our spiritual assets to serve and glorify Him.
We can fail to develop into what our new spiritual abilities offer us for living our lives for God.
But, even if we fail to develop and mature?
We remain being His own forever.
We will never be in the Lake of Fire.

grace and peace ...........

 

[Genez]

Absolutely, I'm not waiting to become a Saint to inherit all the riches of the universe. They are mine now, I already have salvation and eternal life. That's what God promised to His elect before He made the world

Do you have Kenneth Copeland's phone number?

 

[Genez]

So, you're actually suggesting that sinners need to complete the work which the Lord failed to finish on the cross. That sounds like an entirely different gospel to me, the Lord said "it is finished" but you come along and say "nay Lord, you failed to finish the job", so we need to finish the job for Him.

Your summary doesn't align with the biblical gospel, it may tickle the ears of those who seek to attribute salvation to their good works. But it falls flat on it's face when compared to the biblical gospel.

You're not understanding what I said. I was not advocating that.

 

[HeIsHere]

I don't think in terms of losing salvation. Salvation is from some things and to some things. If we fail to avail ourselves of some of the deliverance Jesus is providing and/or some of the blessings he is offering, we are forfeiting those benefits of receiving Him that we were given access to when we believed, for as long as we fail to avail ourselves of them. Salvation is a expansive smorgasbord of elements. And we are necessarily forfeiting them all or experiencing them all at any time.

Full salvation is being fully conformed to Jesus Christ. Being saved is the process of atonement, justification, sanctification and glorification that gets us there. Any step along the way is "being saved".

Very interesting.

I would say we are justified, adopted, redeemed and sanctified in a moment in time (born again as per Jesus' words) however living in that reality is the process.

But there has to be a first step in the process right?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Nowhere in the Bible says Jesus did not die for them.
You are creating this definition by your own reasoning which is a form of idolatry.


From a once great Calvinist who left the Cult:
“GOD SOVEREIGNLY DECREED THAT MAN SHOULD BE FREE TO EXERCISE MORAL CHOICE, AND MAN FROM THE BEGINNING HAS FULFILLED THAT DECREE BY MAKING HIS CHOICE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL. WHEN HE CHOOSES TO DO EVIL, HE DOES NOT THEREBY COUNTERVAIL THE SOVEREIGN WILL OF GOD BUT FULFILLS IT, INASMUCH AS THE ETERNAL DECREE DECIDED NOT WHICH CHOICE THE MAN SHOULD MAKE BUT THAT HE SHOULD BE FREE TO MAKE IT. IF IN HIS ABSOLUTE FREEDOM GOD HAS WILLED TO GIVE MAN LIMITED FREEDOM, WHO IS THERE TO STAY HIS HAND OR SAY, ‘WHAT DOEST THOU?’ MAN’S WILL IS FREE BECAUSE GOD IS SOVEREIGN. A GOD LESS THAN SOVEREIGN COULD NOT BESTOW MORAL FREEDOM UPON HIS CREATURES. HE WOULD BE AFRAID TO DO SO.” – A.W. TOZER, THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE HOLY: THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD

Their are two types of people in this world. The natural people that have not been born again of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14), who cannot discern the things of the Spirit, thinking them to be foolishness, and those people who Christ died for, and are born again, which are the ones that his Father gave him, saying he would not lose any of them, but raise them up at the last day, who have the promise of an eternal inheritance (John 6:37-40)

 

[Genez]

tEi gar kariti (For by grace) este (you are, pl. ) sesOsmenoi (having been saved: perfect passive participle) dia tEs piseOs (through faith) kai touto (and that) ouk (not) ex humOn (out of you) theou (of God) to dOron (the gift).

For by means of grace you were saved and are continuing to be saved through faith, and that is the gift of God not [originating] from you.

The present perfect passive participle indicates that you were saved in the past by faith and are continuing to be saved in the present by faith. This implies that we must be believing in the past to be saved in the past, and we must be believing in the present to continue to be saved in the present.

As an example, part way through fighting a forest fire the firemen are told, "You have been protected from the fire by your fire-proof suits, and you didn't provide them yourselves, they were provided to you by the fire department."

Is their "having been protected by the fire-proof suits" transitory, or permanent? Clearly having been protected up to now depended on wearing the suits. And continuing to be in that protected state depends on continuing to wear the suits. And taking off the suit means one will lose their protection from the fire.

There is the sin unto death for the believer who alienates himself from God by sinning. 1 Jn 5:16

But, be that as it may. He is still going to be in heaven after he dies....

In that sense.... always saved.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin

Normally, I am in agreement with what you post, except for this one thing. I believe the scriptures teach that if a person believes that there is a spiritual God, and worships him, they are born again, even though they do not believe Jesus is their Savour.

I may be misinterpreting you, because they are believers.

 

[Genez]

Very interesting.

I would say we are justified, adopted, redeemed and sanctified in a moment in time (born again as per Jesus' words) however living in that reality is the process.

But there has to be a first step in the process right?

First step to be learned...
Getting oneself back on the road when we swerve and end in a ditch.

This is God's towing service for when we sin...

​

If we confess/acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins ​

and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9​

Being led of the Spirit will keep leading us into what we need at the stage of growth we will find ourselves in.
1 John 1:9 is keeping oneself on the narrow road that leads to finding Life as God wants us to have it.

Arrogance is the big enemy. For arrogance fails to recognize sin.

grace and peace ...........

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin

They don't believe because God BLINDED them.

And since I have given you Paul's Writing of Proof that God blinded them [plus it's in the Old Testament] and you still reject it that means you REJECT God!

This is WRITTEN in the OLD Testament and the NEW Testament simile for simile:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

You just called God a LIAR!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It seems, and I do not want to think I have complete understanding here but just good observational skills but when I think of Calvinist and those who are not Calvinist definitions of God's True Love. This is what I see.

My interpretation of God's True Love = He died for every human being ever conceived.

My interpretation of Calvinists definition of God's True Love = He, on purpose, for His Sovereign Glory, sent 3/4 of everyone He created to an eternal hell.

Those that he did not die for sent themselves to hell by their actions. All of mankind would have gone to hell, even you and I, if God had not chosen to save the majority of mankind (Psalms 53:2-3).

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Their are two types of people in this world. The natural people that have not been born again of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14), who cannot discern the things of the Spirit, thinking them to be foolishness, and those people who Christ died for, and are born again, which are the ones that his Father gave him, saying he would not lose any of them, but raise them up at the last day, who have the promise of an eternal inheritance (John 6:37-40)

I agree but I also am well aware of this...
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Those that he did not die for sent themselves to hell by their actions. All of mankind would have gone to hell, even you and I, if God had not chosen to save the majority of mankind (Psalms 53:2-3).

Nowhere in the Bible does it say God only died for certain people.
Your doctrine made that up.
Since it is literally not written as you claim you just cannot make things up.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

1 John 1:9 is keeping oneself on the narrow road that leads to finding Life as God wants us to have it.

The "life" referenced in Matt 7:14 is not eternal life, but is an abundant life of peace and contentment that the remnant of Israel, who have no fear, enjoy as they live their lives here on earth, walking in the ways of the Lord. (Zeph 3:9-14)

The wide gate are disobedient Israel, surnamed Jacob who go in thereat, teaching and preaching their false doctrines, and are referenced in the scriptures as the lost sheep of the household (Matt 10:5-6).

Both gates are God's elect who have the promise of an eternal inheritance. This harmonizes with Ezk 10, especially verse 10. The larger outer wheel represents disobedient Israel, and the smaller inner wheel represents the remnant.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say God only died for certain people.
Your doctrine made that up.
Since it is literally not written as you claim you just cannot make things up.

John 6:37-39.

 

[Burn1986]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say God only died for certain people.
Your doctrine made that up.
Since it is literally not written as you claim you just cannot make things up.

Yep, thank you 👍

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

John 6:37-39.

You know He is talking about His Disciples. Jesus came for the JEWS. Paul is who evangelized to the Gentiles.

Jesus is talking here:
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

 

[brightfame52]

They don't believe because God BLINDED them.

And since I have given you Paul's Writing of Proof that God blinded them [plus it's in the Old Testament] and you still reject it that means you REJECT God!

This is WRITTEN in the OLD Testament and the NEW Testament simile for simile:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

You just called God a LIAR!

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin