Predestination is misunderstood...

[ForestGreenCook]

I do understand because I see the world as comprising two types of people, believers and unbelievers. There are many believers out there in the world who don't know they are believers yet. I didn't know I was one until my mid thirties.

The difference, as far as I can see between you and I, is you think God has to "hit some switch" in you before you can believe. While I agree God must initiate the process and reveal the truth and muzzle the sin nature in the flesh, I disagree man cannot agree or disagree with God's truth when revealed of his own free will. It is the flesh that is anti-God, not the soul. It is the body that instinctively seeks to preserve itself which is why it cannot serve God. If the soul were of the same ilk, it would be impossible to save the soul, it would have to be destroyed and remade. That process would effectively obliterate us and we would no longer exist.

Christ died for all sin. If He had not? Then unbelievers would be justified in their rejection of Him. It is because He died for all that God is justified in revealing the truth even to the reprobate without compromising His righteousness.

If he died for all mankind, then how do you interpret John 6:36-39?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

After the fall man had a nature that was unable to be good, because the flesh dominates over the soul.
The flesh is the source of our depravity....

If God placed believers souls inside sinless bodies?
The total depravity of man would become a thing of the past.

The soul became a slave to the flesh.
Grace and truth liberates the soul from the depravity of the fallen flesh....

​

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, ​

“If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, ​

and you will know the truth, and the truth will set ​

you free.” John 8:31-32​

grace and peace .................

The fact that we have been born again, does not mean that we do not still carry the burden of our fleshly nature. This is why those who have been born again, do at times, lust after the things of the world (Gal 5:13).

 

[HeIsHere]

The soul became a slave to the flesh.

You believe babies are born slaves to the flesh?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The age old debate is if they were ordained to eternal life because God foreknew they would believe or because God preordained they believe. I believe the former because Scripture indicates that God desires all men to know the truth.

Here is what God foreknew; Psalms 53:2-3 - God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back, they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[Cameron143]

So, man is not spiritually dead and in need of resurrection before he can believe or do good; but man is spiritually sick and needs a doctor to heal him so that he can believe and do good more effectively and consistently.

Resurrection is to gain an eternal glorified estate in body and soul.
Made alive or quickened is the biblical term for spiritual life of a believer.
Jesus does use the analogy of a physician who heals those who recognize they need healing.
Romans 6 also uses the analogy of baptism as a picture of our association and interest in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
So it's not either/or, but depends on how the language is employed in scripture.

 

[Cameron143]

I do find it to be the Calvinist apologists who quickly ascribe a dissenter to some supposedly heretical class based on their holding one common belief with that group, and then howl most loudly when they get classified as platonists or gnostics or something else.

I guess it depends on which side of the argument your sentiments lie. I was told I was a gnostic only yesterday.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

As usual total ignorance regarding those who are teaching totally depravity and hyper grace.

Clear basic understanding not acted upon yet again.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

You believe babies are born slaves to the flesh?

the soul is flesh also there is plenty of scripture to back this up.


What he fails to understand is that the, human nature which is embedded in the flesh and soul which are one, is no longer spiritualy alive after the fall.

But the human nature God created mankind is.

It's kind of like a back up plan from God.

As God knows the human nature is able to call to God and resist the devil.

This is also backed up in scripture


Anyhow stroll on 🙂

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

All shall i say resist evil and sin 🙂

Time for some dancing

 

[Genez]

good morning 🙂

So what your actually saying is man was not able to do any good after the fall,

You do realise that what your suggesting is total depravity.

Now also what your proscribing is hyper grace and Calvinism.

So this morning I want you to provide scripture that says man was not able to do any good.

What you've provided here in your answer is what man could do.

So now I have hundreds of scriptures that says that say man was able to do Good before the flood.

So could you provide it.


Hopefully this will ring some bells 🙂

That is the second time I took my time to give you an answer that perfectly answered your inquisition. .

And, twice you attempted to find a way to nullify what was said by distorting my intention.

You are not after truth.
You are out to see how you can disrupt.
Its an ego boost for you to do that.

I understand.

 

[Genez]

The fact that we have been born again, does not mean that we do not still carry the burden of our fleshly nature. This is why those who have been born again, do at times, lust after the things of the world (Gal 5:13).

Those who are born again who resist doctrine that is sound can become mentally ill...
It happens all the time....

Grace enabling requires sound teaching for Grace to do its work. For what grace wishes to accomplish in us is actually contrary to our own thinking in many cases.... Sound doctrine helps us to get out of the way when God wishes to accomplish a change in our life.

Without securing sound teaching God wanting to work in us can seem foreign to our natural view of things.
That is when believers seek teachings to transform God's word into their own image...

Its why Jesus said... "Few find it."

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:8-9

 

[Genez]

You believe babies are born slaves to the flesh?

Only if they will lust to fornicate and steal ......

God takes us through stages so parents can train the child.

Yet, we hear the age two being the terrible twos, don't we?

grace and peace ............

 

[PaulThomson]

Resurrection is to gain an eternal glorified estate in body and soul.
Made alive or quickened is the biblical term for spiritual life of a believer.
Jesus does use the analogy of a physician who heals those who recognize they need healing.
Romans 6 also uses the analogy of baptism as a picture of our association and interest in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
So it's not either/or, but depends on how the language is employed in scripture.

A person who is already "dead" would not need "to be put to death" in baptism. So men are not spiritually dead before believing in Jesus, but are spiritually sick. They have a compromised life, a debilitated life, they are destined for death, but they are not dead.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

That is the second time I took my time to give you an answer that perfectly answered your inquisition. .

And, twice you attempted to find a way to nullify what was said by distorting my intention.

You are not after truth.
You are out to see how you can disrupt.
Its an ego boost for you to do that.

I understand.

I'm still waiting for you to provide scripture that man was not able to good after the fall.


🙂

Stroll on 🙂

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You say that you have read 1 Cor 2:14, but your comments proves that your interpretation of it is false, and will not harmonize with the other scriptures. So, what is your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14?

It's specifically talking about the Holy Spirit. Even though it mentions the "natural man" not knowing and understanding how the Holy Spirit works, there's 2/3 of the Saved who have no clue either.

 

[Cameron143]

A person who is already "dead" would not need "to be put to death" in baptism. So men are not spiritually dead before believing in Jesus, but are spiritually sick. They have a compromised life, a debilitated life, they are destined for death, but they are not dead.

You misunderstood my point. Baptism doesn't put someone to death. It is an expression of one's association and interest in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. It is merely symbolic and a public proclamation of their newfound identity in Christ.

 

[Magenta]

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed
to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the
sons of disobedience. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh
and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when
we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ
and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He
might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do
good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life. Ephesians 2:1-10

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Those who are born again who resist doctrine that is sound can become mentally ill...
It happens all the time....

Grace enabling requires sound teaching for Grace to do its work. For what grace wishes to accomplish in us is actually contrary to our own thinking in many cases.... Sound doctrine helps us to get out of the way when God wishes to accomplish a change in our life.

Without securing sound teaching God wanting to work in us can seem foreign to our natural view of things.
That is when believers seek teachings to transform God's word into their own image...

Its why Jesus said... "Few find it."

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:8-9

Just to clarify things, are you claiming that I am mentally ill? Are you implying "the few that find it" are finding eternal life?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It's specifically talking about the Holy Spirit. Even though it mentions the "natural man" not knowing and understanding how the Holy Spirit works, there's 2/3 of the Saved who have no clue either.

Yes, but the difference in the natural man, and the born again, is that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit. (1 Cor 2:14)

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Yes, but the difference in the natural man, and the born again, is that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit. (1 Cor 2:14)

Nowhere in that verse does it say the "natural man" cannot [receive] the things of the Spirit.

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.