Predestination is misunderstood...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Chaps said:
I like that analogy…and it helps explain my question. Why would the Holy Spirit bother ensuring the text of the inspired when men are in a dark room and can’t read it? It would seem that if illumination is required, inspiration is not necessary. I think the fact that the Scriptures are inspired indicates that they were written to be understood by both believers and unbelievers.

IMO, the Word has the power to change lives because it is inspired, true and from God. Anyone who hears/reads it can be impacted by the truth and power of the Gospel and be saved. Otherwise, the historical accuracy or inspiration of the original texts means very little as the primary factor in any revelation or enlightenment is a direct activity of the Holy Spirit on the eyes of someone who is stuck in the dark.

I guess another way of putting it is this…

Is the message of the Gospel inspired so that dead men can hear it and receive life, or…
Do men receive life by intervention of an illuminating Spirit and then read/hear the Gospel and such their response is merely a reflection of the quickening the Spirit has already provided.

In the first case, it would seem the Gospel is the power of God to save people (as Scripture indicates to me), whereas in the second case, the quickening of the Spirit saves people and the understanding/accepting of the Gospel is the after effect of God’s selection of the person. I hope this makes sense
Click to expand...

I would stick with the secon case if I were you, because it will harmonize with all of the other scriptures.
 
sawdust said:
I take it you're saying the "all men" in 1Tim.2:1 is not all men but a specific group of men who are teaching false doctrine?

If I have understood that correctly, I disagree. If you look at chapter one, Paul's charge to Timothy is based on the backdrop of his own experience of salvation. Paul, who recognises himself as the "chief of sinners" (1Tim.1:15), realises that no-one is beyond the possibility of salvation hence, the call to pray for all men in 1Tim.2:1.
Click to expand...


You are not understanding how, or when, eternal salvation came to those that have it.

The promise of eternal salvation was accomplished, by Christ's sacrifice on the cross, for all of those that his Father gave him, which was not all of mankind. (John 6:37-40).

Christ's sacrifice was to redeem all of those that his Father gave him, and his sacrifice was for God's acceptance, and not to mankind for their acceptance.

Christ said "it is finished, and there would no more sacrifices for sins"


Those that Christ died for on the cross are God's sheep, and are the only ones that can hear his voice and believe (John 10:26-29)
 
Chaps said:
I appreciate the discussion and your use of Scripture to validate your position even though I may disagree. I think, however, Paul’s point in saying that the Gospel was a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Greeks was not that God was not permitting them to understand/believe it, but because they the Jews demand signs and the Greeks loved wisdom. Thus, the unwillingness to believe had more to do with what these folks loved rather than a determination of which ones God loved or had chosen.

I think Paul’s emphasis here is in how he begins this discussion: “It pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.” Thus the called are those who are saved by responding to God’s message with belief. I would imagine that if your view was what he meant, it the statement would read something like: “It pleased God to reveal His chosen by causing them to believe a message of folly.” Rather, it seems the response of belief, both here and elsewhere in Paul’s writing, is the responsibilty of the hearer and determines who is called. Refusal to believe is treated by Paul in his writings and in Acts to be a rejection of God’s grace rather than a display that God has not provided that grace (cf. Acts 13:46).
Click to expand...


I think you will find that those who believed Paul's preaching were limited to those who were ordained to eternal life (Acts 13:40).
 
Cameron143 said:
From that perspective, there is no need for God in salvation. A person can simply read the Bible and believe and they are saved.

Except, that's not how scripture deals with salvation. Men in their natural estate never seek after God. It is always God who initiates with man.
Click to expand...

Amen to that.
 
Cameron143 said:
I'm done. I hope some other playmates come along for you
Click to expand...
can you tell me of your understanding of this scripture you posted.



Romans 3:12...there is none that doeth good, no, not one...
Luke 18:19...none is good, save one, that is, God.

Remember you said you don't get offended by people's posts.

May I ask your understanding of the this verse you posted.

A word of understanding 🙂

 
Thunderrr-mental said:
can you tell me of your understanding of this scripture you posted.



Romans 3:12...there is none that doeth good, no, not one...
Luke 18:19...none is good, save one, that is, God.

Remember you said you don't get offended by people's posts.

May I ask your understanding of the this verse you posted.

A word of understanding 🙂

Click to expand...
I'm not offended. I'm just not playing along anymore. You know the meaning of those scriptures.
 
Cameron143 said:
I'm not offended. I'm just not playing along anymore. You know the meaning of those scriptures.
Click to expand...
playing along, isn't that what children do.

Can you give your understanding.

Can you give two understandings of the scripture you post. .im asking you to share the gospel 🙂

 
Cameron143 said:
The image of God in man was corrupted in the fall. Salvation is about restoring the image of God in man...with some really cool upgrades.
You don't understand total depravity. It doesn't mean that man is completely corrupt. It means that every aspect of man...the whole of a person...has been corrupted. In other words, man's mind was affected in the fall. It still functions, but it is no longer as it was created. Man's heart has been corrupted. It, too, still functions, but not as intended in creation. And so forth.
Click to expand...

This is where you are incorrect. The mind and heart, both aspects of the soul, are not corrupt because the soul is created by God. They become corrupted because they are locked into the corruption of the flesh and the soul sucks up the worlds ideas mostly due to ignorance being spiritually dead but they do not lose their ability to function anymore than a cheetah loses the function to run fast when you put him in a cage. That corruption takes time and only completely overcomes a man if he constantly rejects God's drawing. God has never forsaken man. The only truly forsaken one was Christ on the Cross for the time He bore our sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity can only apply if God turned his back on man (which He never has) and is given time to take hold. Man is not born totally depraved, he can only potentially become that way. Hence, the lake of fire is applied to man as well to separate those who love the darkness from those who don't.

Man is wrong but that doesn't necessarily make him evil. Unfortunately the doctrine of TD claims he is born evil which isn't true.
 
ForestGreenCook said:
You are not understanding how, or when, eternal salvation came to those that have it.
Click to expand...

I do understand because I see the world as comprising two types of people, believers and unbelievers. There are many believers out there in the world who don't know they are believers yet. I didn't know I was one until my mid thirties.

The difference, as far as I can see between you and I, is you think God has to "hit some switch" in you before you can believe. While I agree God must initiate the process and reveal the truth and muzzle the sin nature in the flesh, I disagree man cannot agree or disagree with God's truth when revealed of his own free will. It is the flesh that is anti-God, not the soul. It is the body that instinctively seeks to preserve itself which is why it cannot serve God. If the soul were of the same ilk, it would be impossible to save the soul, it would have to be destroyed and remade. That process would effectively obliterate us and we would no longer exist.

Christ died for all sin. If He had not? Then unbelievers would be justified in their rejection of Him. It is because He died for all that God is justified in revealing the truth even to the reprobate without compromising His righteousness.
 
stilllearning said:
You argue against yourself. In another thread you say that eating the fruit gave man the knowledge of good and evil. Now you say that God created that in man.
Click to expand...

You were not careful in reading what he said...


After the fall of Adam, Man still had the human nature conscience that God created them with. That was created to know right from wrong which God saw was good.
Click to expand...

What I believe he was alluding to (human nature conscious) what we call the human soul .
The human soul was created with the ability to know right and wrong.
Yet the soul when first made alive was not yet aware of such a thing as right and wrong.

Before Adam fell while living in the yet unfallen world Adam simply had no need to discern between right and wrong.
Just the same, once he was fallen, Adam's soul was instantly able to know right from wrong.

Baby eagles do not fly right after hatched. They were born to fly, but were not flying when first made alive.
Likewise, God created the human soul to be able to know right from wrong without needing to discern right from wrong.
Even when told not to eat from the tree the concept of right and wrong was not yet in Adam's frame of reference.
It was to be simply a matter of obedience motivated by love.

Adam in the Garden did not know he had this ability to know right from wrong.
Not until the Lord threw man out of his nest did man had to switch to thinking in terms of "right and wrong."
- Knowing Good and evil.

The soul was created to know right from wrong.
But, created initially without the need to be knowing right from wrong.

In contrast.

Man was not created by God to sin. But, created with a volition that allowed for a choice to sin.
Our sin nature defect is like how human brain cells die when cut off from oxygen and causing brain damage.
The resultant brain damage causes a malfunction in our physical function.

Grace is God's "treatment for the disease" (but, not the cure) for keeping our spiritual brain damage in check.
God's grace-enabling power is given to man by God to enable fallen man to live righteously when he is functioning
in the filling of the Spirit and while thinking with sound doctrine.



But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may ​
rest on me." 2 Corinthians 12:9​


Grace is not a feeling of unmerited approval God has for us.
Its an actual power to enable us to function in a manner that God approves of.

Grace is God's provision for battle .....


grace and peace .................
 
ForestGreenCook said:
No.
Click to expand...

After the fall man had a nature that was unable to be good, because the flesh dominates over the soul.
The flesh is the source of our depravity....

If God placed believers souls inside sinless bodies?
The total depravity of man would become a thing of the past.

The soul became a slave to the flesh.
Grace and truth liberates the soul from the depravity of the fallen flesh....

​
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, ​
“If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, ​
and you will know the truth, and the truth will set ​
you free.” John 8:31-32​



grace and peace .................
 
Genez said:
After the fall man had a nature that was unable to be good, because the flesh dominates over the soul.
The flesh is the source of our depravity....

If God placed believers souls inside sinless bodies?
The total depravity of man would become a thing of the past.

The soul became a slave to the flesh.
Grace and truth liberates the soul from the depravity of the fallen flesh....

​
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, ​
“If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, ​
and you will know the truth, and the truth will set ​
you free.” John 8:31-32​



grace and peace .................
Click to expand...
i not alluding to how you believe I think what you assume.

So I suggest you realise what alluding means, because you've just assumed yet again.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back