Questions

[Johann]

If we go to 1Cor. 1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
Strong’s want help here it is wrong (to speak-2980) word: you have to go to the MS and the one at British museum is one of best that is readily available to the public for small subscription, or use to be.
The word to speak :34=-Gr-λαλεῖν (lalein) — 21 Occurrences
: GRK: ἐπιτρέπεται αὐταῖς λαλεῖν ἀλλὰ ὑποτασσέσθωσαν
KJV: unto them to speak; but
Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
GRK: ἐστιν γυναικὶ λαλεῖν ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ
KJV: for women to speak in

Keep silence in the churches (en tais ekklēsiais sigatōsan). The same verb used about the disorders caused by speakers in tongues (1Co_14:28) and prophets (1Co_14:30). For some reason some of the women were creating disturbance in the public worship by their dress (1Co_11:2-16) and now by their speech. There is no doubt at all as to Paul’s meaning here. In church the women are not allowed to speak (lalein) nor even to ask questions. They are to do that at home (en oikōi). He calls it a shame (aischron) as in 1Co_11:6 (cf. Eph_5:12; Tit_1:11). Certainly women are still in subjection (hupotassesthōsan) to their husbands (or ought to be). But somehow modern Christians have concluded that Paul’s commands on this subject, even 1Ti_2:12, were meant for specific conditions that do not apply wholly now. Women do most of the teaching in our Sunday schools today. It is not easy to draw the line. The daughters of Philip were prophetesses. It seems clear that we need to be patient with each other as we try to understand Paul’s real meaning here.

Yes?

 

[Is2C]

Keep silence in the churches (en tais ekklēsiais sigatōsan). The same verb used about the disorders caused by speakers in tongues (1Co_14:28) and prophets (1Co_14:30). For some reason some of the women were creating disturbance in the public worship by their dress (1Co_11:2-16) and now by their speech. There is no doubt at all as to Paul’s meaning here. In church the women are not allowed to speak (lalein) nor even to ask questions. They are to do that at home (en oikōi). He calls it a shame (aischron) as in 1Co_11:6 (cf. Eph_5:12; Tit_1:11). Certainly women are still in subjection (hupotassesthōsan) to their husbands (or ought to be). But somehow modern Christians have concluded that Paul’s commands on this subject, even 1Ti_2:12, were meant for specific conditions that do not apply wholly now. Women do most of the teaching in our Sunday schools today. It is not easy to draw the line. The daughters of Philip were prophetesses. It seems clear that we need to be patient with each other as we try to understand Paul’s real meaning here.

Yes?

Everyone should keep quiet, not just women Disruption in Church service is a shame for anyone. But the subject for woman to have head uncovered was the shame Paul was speaking of because if didnt have CHRIST over them then they would allow the fallen angels to seduce them and the reason Paul writes in 1Co 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

 

[Is2C]

Everyone should keep quiet, not just women Disruption in Church service is a shame for anyone. But the subject for woman to have head uncovered was the shame Paul was speaking of because if didnt have CHRIST over them then they would allow the fallen angels to seduce them and the reason Paul writes in 1Co 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

Ill be back later I hope have some things to take care of

 

[Johann]

Everyone should keep quiet, not just women Disruption in Church service is a shame for anyone. But the subject for woman to have head uncovered was the shame Paul was speaking of because if didnt have CHRIST over them then they would allow the fallen angels to seduce them and the reason Paul writes in 1Co 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

Right-this is your interpretation of this "very controversial verse"--Tell me, is the pulpit appropriate for women? Or are we going to redefine the Scriptures to fit in with our narrative and cultures?
J.

 

[Is2C]

Right-this is your interpretation of this "very controversial verse"--Tell me, is the pulpit appropriate for women? Or are we going to redefine the Scriptures to fit in with our narrative and cultures?
J.

Back just for a skinny minute. I believe if a woman is married and have small kids they need to take care of them And no in that instant they should not preach for it is a 24/7 job!! That is the big problem with kids today Parents are not home to parent and guide. But if there are women and there are, that are not married or married and have small kids running around who can devout a full time job and the big one teach the true WORD of GOD and are called YES there is a place for them on the pulpit. as stated over and over and went through history of women teachers and in Acts 2, and Joel 2 GOD said in the end of days both sons and daughters will prophecy where HOLY SPIRIT speaks through them.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

IMO, this is clear women are not to speak in the churches. Speech would include audible praying, singing, fellowshipping, etc. As well, the let them ask their husbands would suggest they were not to own or read Scripture. Let their husbands teach them.

So you believe a women is not to speak or pray openly in church? You believe this is for today?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

****** Kenneth is correct on all accounts!! NO ONE should chatter in church! when at the time 1 stood up and read the scrolls; No Man, No woman, No child. It is disruptive and an insult to the one reading and preaching and an insult to GOD. Be the preacher being Woman or man. Throughout the WORD of GOD when no man stood up GOD chose a women who seem to have more of a back bone then men.
Exo 15:20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.
Moses sister Miriam was prophetess.

Act 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
Phillip had 4 virgin daughters that never knew a man who were also teachers of the gospel traveling with Phillip through Caesarea in which Judah never conquered, but Phillip and his daughters did through the HS.

Jdg 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
When no man stood up to defend Israel GOD chose Deborah who led them into victory, she was a Judge and preacher.

2Ch 34:22 And Hilkiah, and they that the king had appointed, went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvath, the son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college and they spake to her to that effect.
A woman way back than who was a prophetess at a college (leader), they sought her advice over all others.
Zethaniah and Jeremiah, Zedakiah all was around but they went to her to enquire of the Word.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

There is more but anyone who denies a true teacher of the doctrine of CHRIST (male or female) does not do the will of CHRIST. SONS AND DAUGHTERS; will spread the truth in these end times. men since this age began have held women back, caused many women to not stand up because of not knowing the will of GOD. GOD choosing whom so ever HE will to preach truth.

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy... hummm

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

HAHAHAHAH The word "chatter" is not even found in Scripture in this context! So you are already off on the wrong foot.

According to the context, there was no chattering in the churches. Even the NASB does not translate that Greek word laleo as "chatter".
NASB Translation
made (1), proclaiming (1), said (6), say (5), saying (7), says (2), speak (95), speak forth (1), speaking (54), speaks (25), spoke (44), spoken (38), stating (1), talked (1), talking (5), tell (1), telling (1), things spoken (2), told (7), uttered (1), whispered* (1)

The issue was "speaking". Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak*; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (1 Cor 14:34)
*Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2980: λαλέω
2. to speak, i. e. to use the tongue or the faculty of speech; to utter articulate sounds: absolutely 1 Corinthians 14:11.

In fact that would be quite an insulting assumption regarding the churches and the women at that time. The issues were quite different. Women were attempting to speak in tongues publicly, and Paul made it clear that that was unacceptable to God. Women were to keep silent in church meetings and also be in submission ("under obedience") to their own husbands. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (1 Cor 14:35) That is a very strong statement. "It is a shame" because the women shame both themselves and the whole church!

Then women were attempting to teach and usurp authority in the churches, and that too was unacceptable to God. And Paul makes this quite clear in 1 Timothy 2. So anyone trying to promote disobedience to these Scriptures is promoting rebellion. And the Bible says that rebellion is "as the sin of witchcraft" (1 Sam 15:23).

Then you have taken several passages OUT OF CONTEXT to prove your point. Not a single one of those passages relates to New Testament church gatherings or meetings for worship.

A woman can't speak in tongues?! So if the interpretation comes to her does she stay silent or whisper it to her husband? Can a woman teach a Sunday school class?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Actually it fits perfectly with the whole New Testament (which is supported by the OT). There are two aspects to the issue of Christian men vs women: (1) their position in Christ and *(2) their respective roles in the home and in the (local) church.

Paul made it crystal clear that within the Body of Christ there are no distinctions of any kind. This pertains to the spiritual standing and position of every believer. All are children of God by faith in Christ.

However, within the home and within the church, men and women have distinct (but complementary) roles. Christian women are to be in subjection to their own husbands , as Sarah was in subjection to Abraham. And Christian women are to keep silent in church meetings, and not attempt to teach the church, or usurp authority over the church. This is because just as God the Father is "Head" (or authority over) Christ, the Christian man is
"head" (or authority over) his wife (and Adam was in authority over Eve).

Therefore women would be in violation of this principle is they attempted to usurp authority. See 1 Corinthians 11, where Christian women are commanded to wear head coverings as a symbol of their husbands' authority over them (which also translates into Christ's authority over them) and over the local church. Christ is Head over the Church (His Body and Bride) and He says that Christian men must reflect His headship by keeping their heads uncovered during worship.

Well we have a lot of singles ladies, you can hop over to the forum and see. Where do they stand with no husband?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

While Aquila and Priscilla are known for their assistance to Apollos in the Scriptures, they also had a close relationship with the apostle Paul. Aquila and Priscilla were tentmakers by trade, like Paul, and they worked together with him in Corinth (Acts 18:1-3). They hosted Paul in their home and were fellow laborers in spreading the Gospel. Their partnership with Paul extended beyond just their interactions with Apollos. Aquila and Priscilla were valued companions and supporters of Paul in his ministry endeavors.

Sooo they had special privileges women don't have today cause they were buddies?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Let's guess? You don't like Voddie? And his message?

I believe he is OSAS...

 

[Johann]

Back just for a skinny minute. I believe if a woman is married and have small kids they need to take care of them And no in that instant they should not preach for it is a 24/7 job!! That is the big problem with kids today Parents are not home to parent and guide. But if there are women and there are, that are not married or married and have small kids running around who can devout a full time job and the big one teach the true WORD of GOD and are called YES there is a place for them on the pulpit. as stated over and over and went through history of women teachers and in Acts 2, and Joel 2 GOD said in the end of days both sons and daughters will prophecy where HOLY SPIRIT speaks through them.

Went to great length to get this video clip-

921,243 views Dec 4, 2022 Women In Ministry - EVERYTHING the Bible says and ALL the debates about it
Some say we should remove it from the Bible.

Intro 0:00
9:26 The Take It Out of the Bible View
48:58 The Refutation View
1:34:51 The Education or Clatter View
2:05:56 The Strict View
2:24:44 The Judging Prophecy View
3:09:54 Conclusions

[CORRECTION: at 2:52:10 I said "office of prophet" when I meant to say "office of apostle."]

Others say the Bible is rejecting these statements about women, not endorsing them.

Others say this is why women shouldn't speak in church in any way, perhaps singing in the congregation is ok though.

Others say this is a prohibition on women as teachers during regular all-church services.

Others say this passage is about prophecy and who is supposed to participate in the judging of prophetic gifts, discerning whether those messages are from God.

It's hard to get around the idea that this passage seems to endorse complementarian or patriarchal views of gender roles. But we will explore various attempts to do so.

"As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak" 1 Corinthians 14:33-35

We'll examine all sides and dig deep to get as much clarity as I am able to offer on not only 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 but also how it applies to the topic of Women in Ministry.

After years of being a bit confused about the topic of women in ministry I set out to spend months researching the topic in great detail to produce this exhaustive teaching series on the topic. This is part 11.

CLICK HERE for the playlist of ALL the videos in this series (more will be added as I make them).

• Why We Can't Think Biblically About I...

CLICK HERE for my teaching notes from today’s video. You can find footnotes there as well. https://biblethinker.org/wp-content/u...

If you have time-listen to it and see if we can come to some sort of agreement-especially on the 5 views and the conclusion.

Thanks brother.
J.

 

[Johann]

I believe he is OSAS...

Seems the @ThereRoseaLamb don't have a clue re Voddie-and what is wrong with OSAS?
J.

 

[Edify]

The word meaning usurp was in the whole Bible just once!
Yes , it means to illegally take authority over.
For example, if a husband abuses his wife verbally or physically, it's illegally usurping authority over his wife.
Parents who make slaves of their children are usurpng authority over them.
Usurping authority over her husband is like, "child, do what I say, not what your father says. That's biblically illegal.
A woman who henpecks her husband & abuses him verbally & physically is usurping.
Sadly, children in todays church are probably more guilty than any other, telling their parents what they are going to do.
We must remember that those who ALLOW this(henpecked husbands) are just as guilty of allowing it to continue.

Sadly as well, FEW christians do their job of studying the literal context or thr historical context of scripture before opening their mouth & usurping authority over their brethren by rebuking them without exorcising the love of God. That is also spiritually illegal.
So, the scripture is true... He who judgeth does the same things.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Seems the @ThereRoseaLamb don't have a clue re Voddie-and what is wrong with OSAS?
J.

I can speak for myself, thanks. I do know who he is, my sister is a fan of his, I have listened to some of this messages. I'm not going to break in to someones thread and start talking about OSAS. I don't believe the Bible teaches it. Checked and yes, Voddie is a Calvinist, just as I said. So I do have a "clue" and am right in what I said.

 

[Johann]

I can speak for myself, thanks. I do know who he is, my sister is a fan of his, I have listened to some of this messages. I'm not going to break in to someones thread and start talking about OSAS. I don't believe the Bible teaches it. Checked and yes, Voddie is a Calvinist, just as I said. So I do have a "clue" and am right in what I said.

So post Scriptures as to why you believe Voddie is incorrect and that your view is the only biblical bias--sorry, basis/hupostasis?
If it is convenient-I will enlarge the fonts.
J.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

So post Scriptures as to why you believe Voddie is incorrect and that your view is the only biblical bias--sorry, basis/hupostasis?
If it is convenient-I will enlarge the fonts.
J.

No, I'm not going to derail a thread. I try my best not to do that. I don't like when it's done to me. OSAS is a long running topic here and there a more than a dozen threads on it. I see no reason to post Scripture because people who do believe in OSAS will pull out five or so Scriptures and say the Bible doesn't say that. Its like chasing your tail, I don't see the point.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

So post Scriptures as to why you believe Voddie is incorrect and that your view is the only biblical bias--sorry, basis/hupostasis?
If it is convenient-I will enlarge the fonts.
J.

I hope that didn't come off as rude. It's just I think we should stick to discussing what the OP posted. Though I think this will become about women speaking in church because of the hot button issue.

 

[Is2C]

Went to great length to get this video clip-

921,243 views Dec 4, 2022 Women In Ministry - EVERYTHING the Bible says and ALL the debates about it
Some say we should remove it from the Bible.

Intro 0:00
9:26 The Take It Out of the Bible View
48:58 The Refutation View
1:34:51 The Education or Clatter View
2:05:56 The Strict View
2:24:44 The Judging Prophecy View
3:09:54 Conclusions

[CORRECTION: at 2:52:10 I said "office of prophet" when I meant to say "office of apostle."]

Others say the Bible is rejecting these statements about women, not endorsing them.

Others say this is why women shouldn't speak in church in any way, perhaps singing in the congregation is ok though.

Others say this is a prohibition on women as teachers during regular all-church services.

Others say this passage is about prophecy and who is supposed to participate in the judging of prophetic gifts, discerning whether those messages are from God.

It's hard to get around the idea that this passage seems to endorse complementarian or patriarchal views of gender roles. But we will explore various attempts to do so.

"As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak" 1 Corinthians 14:33-35

We'll examine all sides and dig deep to get as much clarity as I am able to offer on not only 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 but also how it applies to the topic of Women in Ministry.

After years of being a bit confused about the topic of women in ministry I set out to spend months researching the topic in great detail to produce this exhaustive teaching series on the topic. This is part 11.

CLICK HERE for the playlist of ALL the videos in this series (more will be added as I make them).

• Why We Can't Think Biblically About I...

CLICK HERE for my teaching notes from today’s video. You can find footnotes there as well. https://biblethinker.org/wp-content/u...

If you have time-listen to it and see if we can come to some sort of agreement-especially on the 5 views and the conclusion.

Thanks brother.
J.

NO! I never, ever watch youtube; don’t need other men’s opinions cluttering my mind when I am perfectly capable of coming to a conclusion of what GOD says, with tools I have on hand.
That seems to be where so many go astray, they listen to man and not GOD!

 

[Is2C]

NO! I never, ever watch youtube; don’t need other men’s opinions cluttering my mind when I am perfectly capable of coming to a conclusion of what GOD says, with tools I have on hand.
That seems to be where so many go astray, they listen to man and not GOD!

Gotta bounce again, looks like be my last post for the day.