Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[tylerbones1313]

Which are both loved by God, condemned or righteous, doesn't matter.

False they're hated by God as the workers of iniquity Ps 5:5[/QUOTE]

This verse from Psalm 5:5 can be misinterpreted if taken out of context. While it does say "thou hatest all workers of iniquity," it's crucial to understand that the concept of "hate" in this context doesn't necessarily equate to the modern understanding of the word.

Here's a breakdown of the verse:

• "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:" This line doesn't refer to general intelligence, but rather to moral foolishness. It describes those who reject God's will and choose to live a life contrary to His teachings.
• "Thou hatest all workers of iniquity:" Here, "hate" shouldn't be interpreted as God harboring negative emotions like humans do. Instead, it signifies God's complete opposition to sin and evil. He cannot condone or approve of actions that go against His holy nature.

Therefore, the verse emphasizes that God doesn't tolerate evil and wickedness, not that he hates individuals.

It's important to consider other verses in the Bible for a complete understanding. Here are some examples:

• John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." This verse highlights God's immense love for humanity.
• Ezekiel 18:23: "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord GOD: but rather that he should return from his ways, and live?" This further clarifies that God desires for people to turn away from sin and lead a righteous life.

In conclusion, Psalm 5:5 doesn't state that God hates people. It emphasizes his condemnation of wickedness and sin, while other verses emphasize his love for humanity. It's important to read and understand biblical passages in their broader context and consider the nuances of language used in different translations.

My Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Noone on Earth brings new revelation, that isn't already revealed through the Word of God, which is fullest revelation given to man. Through the moving and operation of the Holy Ghost, I Pray what we say here brings the truth of these Revelations, truth by truth, or precept upon precept, to the heart of the hearer. Lay what we say before the feet of Jesus (Word of God) and compare, the Bible is Always truth, so if they don't match, we need to reevaluate our stance. What we say or do here will have lasting impact upon the believer and sinner alike. We most certainly have freedom of speech, but any true christian will weigh what they say against the Word of God and if they don't agree God is not in error, and we need to pray for understanding. Those that have more meat of the Word can help those who are struggling, if done with humility, peace and love. I don't mind a peaceful debate, but when we start to argue amongst each other that is not the Spirit of God. God Bless and Peace to you all. (This signature is in general and not pointing fingers at anyone at anytime. God Bless.)
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[MerSee]

False they're hated by God as the workers of iniquity Ps 5:5

This verse from Psalm 5:5 can be misinterpreted if taken out of context. While it does say "thou hatest all workers of iniquity," it's crucial to understand that the concept of "hate" in this context doesn't necessarily equate to the modern understanding of the word.

Here's a breakdown of the verse:

• "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:" This line doesn't refer to general intelligence, but rather to moral foolishness. It describes those who reject God's will and choose to live a life contrary to His teachings.
• "Thou hatest all workers of iniquity:" Here, "hate" shouldn't be interpreted as God harboring negative emotions like humans do. Instead, it signifies God's complete opposition to sin and evil. He cannot condone or approve of actions that go against His holy nature.

Therefore, the verse emphasizes that God doesn't tolerate evil and wickedness, not that he hates individuals.

It's important to consider other verses in the Bible for a complete understanding. Here are some examples:

• John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." This verse highlights God's immense love for humanity.
• Ezekiel 18:23: "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord GOD: but rather that he should return from his ways, and live?" This further clarifies that God desires for people to turn away from sin and lead a righteous life.

In conclusion, Psalm 5:5 doesn't state that God hates people. It emphasizes his condemnation of wickedness and sin, while other verses emphasize his love for humanity. It's important to read and understand biblical passages in their broader context and consider the nuances of language used in different translations.

My Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Noone on Earth brings new revelation, that isn't already revealed through the Word of God, which is fullest revelation given to man. Through the moving and operation of the Holy Ghost, I Pray what we say here brings the truth of these Revelations, truth by truth, or precept upon precept, to the heart of the hearer. Lay what we say before the feet of Jesus (Word of God) and compare, the Bible is Always truth, so if they don't match, we need to reevaluate our stance. What we say or do here will have lasting impact upon the believer and sinner alike. We most certainly have freedom of speech, but any true christian will weigh what they say against the Word of God and if they don't agree God is not in error, and we need to pray for understanding. Those that have more meat of the Word can help those who are struggling, if done with humility, peace and love. I don't mind a peaceful debate, but when we start to argue amongst each other that is not the Spirit of God. God Bless and Peace to you all. (This signature is in general and not pointing fingers at anyone at anytime. God Bless.)
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All the The Just/Elect/Saved are no longer workers of iniquity.

 

[blueluna5]

The verse you provided, "Saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness" (Malachi 1:2-3), is a complex and controversial passage that has been the subject of various interpretations and theological discussions. The phrase "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau" has been understood in different ways, and its meaning is not straightforward.

The search results provided include various commentaries and reflections on related passages, such as Lamentations 2 and Malachi 1. These resources offer insights into the historical, cultural, and literary context of the verses, as well as different exegetical perspectives.

The verse from Malachi is often interpreted in the context of God's sovereign choice and His dealings with nations rather than individuals. It is important to consider the broader biblical narrative and the principles of God's justice, mercy, and love when interpreting such passages.

Given the complexity of the topic and the diverse range of interpretations, it is advisable to consult a variety of reputable commentaries, theological resources, and scholarly works to gain a comprehensive understanding of the passage. Additionally, engaging in discussions with knowledgeable individuals or scholars within a faith community can provide valuable insights into the interpretation of this verse.

But most don't want to search reputable commentaries-theological sources and scholarly works-what a shame.
J.

I mean even Jesus didn't love everyone such as the Pharisees " You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the divine wrath and judgment to come?"

Again "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

I read the Bible. I don't have to look up every verse. I can use my own critical thinking from reading the Bible. Jesus said some people belong to the devil and I believe him.

Again there's the parables. Why does God speak in parables and metaphors in dreams so only people like Joseph understand it?


“Why do you use parables when you speak to the crowds?”
Jesus replied, “Because they haven’t received the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but you have."

Well why haven't they received the secrets of the kingdom of heaven?? Bc they were not chosen. Because not everyone is chosen.

Again:

"They may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven. "

God chooses who he wants and saves who he wants. The parable of the wheat and weeds is all about this. He doesn't even like that we're growing with the weed, but he allows it bc he would lose wheat, his family if he didn't. If it wasn't for God's children the world wouldn't even exist. He has no interest in the wicked, the children of the devil.

 

[tylerbones1313]

I mean even Jesus didn't love everyone such as the Pharisees " You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the divine wrath and judgment to come?"

Again "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

I read the Bible. I don't have to look up every verse. I can use my own critical thinking from reading the Bible. Jesus said some people belong to the devil and I believe him.

Again there's the parables. Why does God speak in parables and metaphors in dreams so only people like Joseph understand it?


“Why do you use parables when you speak to the crowds?”
Jesus replied, “Because they haven’t received the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but you have."

Well why haven't they received the secrets of the kingdom of heaven?? Bc they were not chosen. Because not everyone is chosen.

Again:

"They may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven. "

God chooses who he wants and saves who he wants. The parable of the wheat and weeds is all about this. He doesn't even like that we're growing with the weed, but he allows it bc he would lose wheat, his family if he didn't. If it wasn't for God's children the world wouldn't even exist. He has no interest in the wicked, the children of the devil.

God doesn't hate any part of His creation to say so is blasphemy. If you feel condemnation accept to convicting power of God and pray. God hates sometimes the decisions we make but would never hate us, even if the choices we made sent us to Hell. He may be Absolute Love but if we don't freely accept it, He is not to blame on where we end up!!

 

[rogerg]

Personally, I believe they are mistaken, but should instead understand it the other way (the way I'm trying to show). So, no... you and I don't seem to "agree" on what that sentence is expressing (it's fine, this is not a complaint / criticism), and I'm just trying to point out the grammatical reasons WHY (why there is even a difference between the TWO DISTINCT interpretations of what v.1 is expressing. It's either a subjective genitive or an objective genitive... but it's a genitive ['OF' Jesus Christ] either way. lol. But having TWO ENTIRELY DISTINCCT ways of reading its intention / meaning / what it's actually intending to convey, see.)


It's like the phrase "love of God"... depending in context, this could be "your love for God," or it could be "God's love" (it's genitive in both cases, so one must ascertain by means of the context which one is intended).


Please DO NOT think I am agreeing with "rogerg's" explanation of this. I'M NOT SAYING WHAT HE IS SAYING!

So then, as it pertains to Galatians 2:16, in stating "WHY" above, you are not saying that you actually found specific wording in the Greek that would make "IN" the only correct interpretation, but contributory reasons where it could be understood that way, correct?
If you did find them, then please restate because I must have missed it. If not, then the "OF" remains a valid way to interpret it.
Even if there is a case to be made for "IN", it could mean that the faith EXISTS WITHIN ("IN") Christ, and not intended to mean faith directed towards Christ, given that there is a specific Greek word for "IN" as in towards, which word, was used with "believed" later in the verse.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Heb 11:1 KJV] 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

hypostasis (substance)

1. a setting or placing under
   1. thing put under, substructure, foundation
2. that which has foundation, is firm
   1. that which has actual existence
      1. a substance, real being
   2. the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
   3. the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
      1. confidence, firm trust, assurance

(I think rogerg joins two distinct parts of distinct clauses [that shouldn't be], and then reads them as though "that [what rg thinks it says] IS THE INTENDED MEANING," whereas it is not. He has simply butchered the sentence. Sometimes we all do this, so I'm not trying to slam him; just trying to point out to you that if you think I'm AGREEING with his explanation and am saying the SAME THING AS HE is, I want to be clear that I am NOT saying that!)

Butchered? How so? You might be correct but didn't provide any details that I found to confirm it.

 

[rogerg]

No problem-read the ESV.
J.

I actually read the NKJV, which has corrected the error. But as I said, I do not trust any english interpretation completely..[/QUOTE]

Explain how you know it is in error?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Explain how you know it is in error?

Because if you look at it in context. The faith of Christ is nonsensical.

But I explained it well in my previous posts..

 

[rogerg]

Faith is not a work it is the grace of God and a state of mind. I don't know where you got your information that Faith is a work of man.

If someone has to self-produce it in order to be saved, then by that, it becomes there work.

 

[rogerg]

Because if you look at it in context. The faith of Christ is nonsensical.

But I explained it well in my previous posts..

I don't see how that in any way the phrase "faith of Jesus Christ" can be misconstrued as being nonsensical.
It means Christ's faith. Do you not think that Christ had faith as He is the author and finisher of faith:

[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[Rev 2:13 ESV] 13 "'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

There are a lot of posts out there and I just came online, so sorry to ask (and I realize it's asking a lot), but as I'm not sure which you have in mind, when you have a chance, if you would, please supply the most significant post number(s) - thanks because I'd
really like to read them to see how you came to that conclusion.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If someone has to self-produce it in order to be saved, then by that, it becomes there work.

You do not self produce faith in someone else.

Thats nonsensical also.

You trust someone else because THEY have produced the respect and trustworthyness in you.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I don't see how that in any way the phrase "faith of Jesus Christ" can be misconstrued as being nonsensical.
It means Christ's faith. Do you not think that Christ had faith as He is the author and finisher of faith:

[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[Rev 2:13 ESV] 13 "'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

There are a lot of posts out there and I just came online, so sorry to ask (and I realize it's asking a lot), but as I'm not sure which you have in mind, when you have a chance, if you would, please supply the most significant post number(s) - thanks because I'd
really like to read them to see how you came to that conclusion.

Christ does not have faith for me.

What Christ does is give me the assurance that I can trust him.

Once again, i answered the question. Can you go back and read it and respond?

 

[tylerbones1313]

If someone has to self-produce it in order to be saved, then by that, it becomes there work.

If the word "Faith" in any context means work than that means sleeping, thinking and dreaming are also works, yet we are not doing anything.

Faith is not a work:

• Salvation by Grace: This perspective emphasizes the concept of salvation by grace alone (Sola Gratia) through faith, not by human efforts or merits. This understanding is often based on passages like Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
• Gift from God: Faith itself is seen as a gift from God, not something humans can work to achieve. They believe God initiates and sustains faith in individuals, and their role is to receive and act upon it (Philippians 1:29).

Faith leads to good works:

• Faith as the Starting Point: This view acknowledges that faith is God-given, but emphasizes that genuine faith leads to good works as a natural response. This perspective finds support in passages like James 2:17: "Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead, being alone."
• Works as Evidence of Faith: This understanding doesn't see good works as a means to earn salvation, but rather as an outward manifestation of genuine faith within.

Finding Common Ground:

While there are differing perspectives, both viewpoints generally agree on:

• The importance of faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.
• The need for good works in the life of a believer.

It's important to understand that these are just two main viewpoints, and there exists a spectrum of interpretations within Christianity. Ultimately, it's up to each individual to explore the scriptures, engage in theological discussions, and prayerfully consider their own understanding of faith and its relationship to works.

 

[rogerg]

If the word "Faith" in any context means work than that means sleeping, thinking and dreaming are also works, yet we are not doing anything.

If a person has to produce them, then in a sense I guess you can say they are works. Anyway, anything pertaining to salvation
anything not given as a gift, is a work, including faith. For those who are given true faith, it was not only a work but God's work which
He alone could/did accomplished.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Mat
16:16-17 KJV] 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If a person has to produce them, then in a sense I guess you can say they are works. Anyway, anything pertaining to salvation
anything not given as a gift, is a work, including faith. For those who are given true faith, it was not only a work but God's work which
He alone could/did accomplished.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Mat
16:16-17 KJV] 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

YOU CAN NOT PRODUCE FAITH IN SOMEONE ELSE ON YOUR OWN.

How many times does this need explained to you.

 

[rogerg]

YOU CAN NOT PRODUCE FAITH IN SOMEONE ELSE ON YOUR OWN.

How many times does this need explained to you.

Enough times that it makes sense, which, it currently does not.

Did I say that someone can produce faith in someone else on their own? Huh? You must be confusing me with someone else.
I say that true faith comes only through/by Christ.

Anyway, no need to reply further.

 

[rogerg]

You do not self produce faith in someone else.

Thats nonsensical also.

You trust someone else because THEY have produced the respect and trustworthyness in you.

That trust in Jesus is given by God, by which, they believe and without which, can no one truly believe.

Used the ESV below as I think it is the one that you use

[Heb 12:2 ESV] 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

This is how the KJV states it:

[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Enough times that it makes sense, which, it currently does not.

Did I say that someone can produce faith in someone else on their own? Huh? You must be confusing me with someone else.
I say that true faith comes only through/by Christ.

Anyway, no need to reply further.

lol

Your argument is that if we produce faith in God on our own it is works.

So yes. You did insinuate that very thing

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That trust in Jesus is given by God, by which, they believe and without which, can no one truly believe.

Used the ESV below as I think it is the one that you use

[Heb 12:2 ESV] 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

This is how the KJV states it:

[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I am not denying that

I am denying that God regenerates us in sin, so we can believe to be justified.

And I am denying that my trust in God I did not come up on my own, nor is it a work..

I do not merit salvation because I looked to the cross and trust God to save me

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

In response to @rogerg putting an X on me calling him out

Here is what he said In a post to @tylerbones1313 concerning faith

If a person has to produce them, (FAITH) then in a sense I guess you can say they are works. Anyway, anything pertaining to salvation
anything not given as a gift, is a work, including faith. For those who are given true faith, it was not only a work but God's work which
He alone could/did accomplished.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Mat
16:16-17 KJV] 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

[rogerg]

Please DO NOT think I am agreeing with "rogerg's" explanation of this. I'M NOT SAYING WHAT HE IS SAYING!


(I think rogerg joins two distinct parts of distinct clauses [that shouldn't be], and then reads them as though "that [what rg thinks it says] IS THE INTENDED MEANING," whereas it is not. He has simply butchered the sentence. Sometimes we all do this, so I'm not trying to slam him; just trying to point out to you that if you think I'm AGREEING with his explanation and am saying the SAME THING AS HE is, I want to be clear that I am NOT saying that!)

Hebrews 12:2 & Jde 1:3, clearly informs us that our faith comes from/by/through Christ, so the "faith of Christ" of Galatians 2:16 is how it should be understood.

[Heb 12:2 ESV] 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[Jde 1:3 ESV] 3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.