Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Everlasting-Grace]

Roman 4:4
Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt.

Yes

In response to those trying to earn salvation by works

Showing Abraham was saved by faith NOT WORKS.

Which is what Jesus said in John 3..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

Yes

Speaking to licentious people. who claim to have faith. But never trusted God

You love taking verses out of Context.. Is this what your church practices?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

A person is indwelt when God saves them - He is the Saviour, man is not. Were they indwelt by their accepting of Christ,
then that would make them their own saviour, not Christ. But Christ alone is the Saviour.
This is not a false teaching it is the foundation of the gospel.

Yes

And they are indwelt when the bible says they are

After hearing the word of truth, and having faith. (eph 1)

 

[rogerg]

I disagree with that notion, for the following reason.

Paul had said in Galatians 3:2,

"I wish only to learn this from you: Did you receive [active (not 'passive')] the Spirit by [ek / ex] works of the Law or by [ek / ex] hearing [G189* ] of faith?"

The Spirit continually ministers/manifests/makes Himself known to someone through their spiritual hearing and because they grow in comprehension/ knowledge/believing of the gospel, which begins at salvation/spiritual rebirth. The hearing of faith - faith's hearing - is of Christ's faith. His faith is imputed to someone when they become saved/born-again.
I think that to gain a complete understanding, we also need to consider Gal 3:5. Observe in it that it is actually
speaking of the ministering of the Spirit which occurs after His indwelling of us.

[Gal 3:5 KJV]
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

[Jhn 8:43, 47 KJV]
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. ...
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Only the elect. God hated Esau and Cain in the Bible. Also Judas was cursed. Seems strange to me that he actually hates some people. They do not have their name in the book of life.

I mean Cain and Judas make sense. Why Esau? He was into fornication and was ungrateful, sold his rights to his brother, lazy, etc.

God did not hate esau, like ytou and I think hate

He did not love his nation (edom) as much as he loved the nation of Jacob.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The Holy Spirit indwells those who are unregenerate as all the unsaved are unregenerate. His indwelling IS their
regeneration. After which, He remains within them throughout this life,

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Um no he does not

He justified them THEN he enters them.

He saved US.. who is US? Those who have recieved his offer of salvation

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes.
As the verses below so inform, we are regenerated and renewed only by the Holy Spirit. If it is by the Holy Spirit, then it isn't and can't be by us; if it cannot be by us, then we are and remain unregenerate right up to the point where we become indwelt by the Holy Spirit, which indwelling, occurs as a part of being saved/born again (observe the "his mercy he saved us..."). IOW we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit's washing of regeneration and renewing, and not until then. So, being regenerated is not a prerequisite for salvation but it comes with salvation. Consequently, all of the unsaved, until saved, are unregenerate - which we all were at one time or another.

[Tit 3:5-7 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We are JUSTIFIED (declaired innocent) By Grace (through faith)

That is who is washed (justified) and regenerated (born again)

 

[rogerg]

If you even TRIED to do some study

You would know that the word hate there means to love less.

Jesus told us we had to hate our family,, He did not mean hate them, he meant love less

God told us to love our enemy, He is not going to tell us to do something he refuses to do.

That passage is about the nation of Israel anyway. Not individual salvation, so your also taking it out of context

No, it is not about the nation of Israel.

[Rom 9:18 KJV]
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Does this sound like God meant that He just loves less? Do you see the "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" part?

[Rom 9:21 -22 KJV]
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[Eph 1:3-5 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

See verse 12 (a few verses after your verses 3-5 [the "us"/"we" ^ ], but right before my verse 13 [the "you also" transition] I pointed out), which verse 12 says (of the "us/we" specifically),

"...who [were] fore-hoping [or, who before-hoped] [G4276 - proelpizō - "From πρό (G4253) ['pro'/before] and ἐλπίζω (G1679) ['elpizo'/hoped]" - participle] in Christ."

(I'm suggesting that this, [this verse] specifically, the "we/us" here, is not directly applicable to you and me, folks who've existed on the earth well after Jesus' earthly ministry and His Cross [as it is talking about ppl who "BEFORE-hoped" in Christ, early that first century, when Christ walked this earth/His earthly ministry]--though we are ALSO members of "the Church which is His body" i.e. ALL those having come to faith "in this present age [singular]" [btwn Pentecost and "our Rapture"]... who would be the "you also" aspect [v.13 transition]...)




[then the next verse, the "you also"... having heard the word of truth... having believed... ]





[v.12's "pro-elpiza" ^ (fore-hoped / fore-hoping) is kinda like the word "fore-knew" in Rom11:2a "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew [G4267 - proginōskō (pro ginosko)]," in that, it is speaking here of OT Israel (that's the "WHEN" of the "FORE-knew" in this Rom11:2 verse)]

 

[rogerg]

See verse 12 (a few verses after your verses 3-5 [the "us"/"we" ^ ], but right before my verse 13 [the "you also" transition] I pointed out), which verse 12 says (of the "us/we" specifically),

"...who [were] fore-hoping [or, who before-hoped] [G4276 - proelpizō - "From πρό (G4253) ['pro'/before] and ἐλπίζω (G1679) ['elpizo'/hoped]" - participle] in Christ."

(I'm suggesting that this, [this verse] specifically, the "we/us" here, is not directly applicable to you and me, folks who've existed on the earth well after Jesus' earthly ministry and His Cross [as it is talking about ppl who "BEFORE-hoped" in Christ, early that first century, when Christ walked this earth/His earthly ministry]--though we are ALSO members of "the Church which is His body" i.e. ALL those having come to faith "in this present age [singular]" [btwn Pentecost and "our Rapture"]... who would be the "you also" aspect [v.13 transition]...)




[then the next verse, the "you also"... having heard the word of truth... having believed... ]





[v.12's "pro-elpiza" ^ (fore-hoped / fore-hoping) is kinda like the word "fore-knew" in Rom11:2a "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew [G4267 - proginōskō (pro ginosko)]," in that, it is speaking here of OT Israel (that's the "WHEN" of the "FORE-knew" in this Rom11:2 verse)]

Sorry, you've lost me. Can you simplify/reduce it down to what you perceive its core, bottom line logic to be?

 

[rogerg]

We are JUSTIFIED (declaired innocent) By Grace (through faith)

That is who is washed (justified) and regenerated (born again)

But by who's faith?

 

[rogerg]

Um no he does not

He does not, what?

 

[rogerg]

Yes

And they are indwelt when the bible says they are

After hearing the word of truth, and having faith. (eph 1)

No, they are indwelt AND THEN by that they can hear. The hearing is spiritual hearing, not human hearing. To be able to hear spiritually comes as a result of salvation and being born-again. That ability is not given to everyone, but only to those whom God had chosen for such - the elect. We have first to receive the Spirit in order to know the things of God.

[1Co 2:12 KJV] 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

 

[MerSee]

No,

thats wrong.

If only the elect could believe, then he would have died for only the elect.

The passage would say for God so loved the elect or his children, that he died for them so they could believe and be saved..

That is correct; only the saved elect are true believers.

 

[MerSee]

No

He came to pay for the sin of the world

A person who will go to hell goes to hell because they did not believe. Jesus paid for their sin.. But he did not pay for unbelief

Can you answer Nils question about what Church you belong to?

2 Timothy 4:3
1 I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: 2 Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. 3 For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears 4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. 5 But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

True. No one denied that.

False, Christ died for everyone, just as the Word says.

 

[MerSee]

It says he loved the WORLD. That he died for IT.

thew world is cosmos. When you see that word it speaks of the non believer, those apposed to god. Which all of us where when he died for us.

It does not say elect there or non elect. So your statement is a strawman, it does not support you any more than it apposes you

God hates the nonelect of hell.

 

[MerSee]

False, Christ died for everyone, just as the Word says.

Nowhere in scripture is it written that Jesus shed His blood for the nonelect.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Nowhere in scripture is it written that Jesus shed His blood for the nonelect.

110% false, the Bible says that Jesus died for everyone, for the entire world. All you need is eyeballs to see it's written in the Word. And more than once. So either you're reading a different book or you're reading it upside down.

 

[MerSee]

110% false, the Bible says that Jesus died for everyone, for the entire world. All you need is eyeballs to see it's written in the Word. And more than once. So either you're reading a different book or you're reading it upside down.

Nowhere in scripture is it written that Jesus shed His blood for the nonelect.