Predestination is misunderstood...

[Genez]

But that is exactly what he said. Repentance for the Jew and faith for the Gentile. How can a Gentile's thinking about the Messiah be wrong and need changing if they have never been told in the first place?

Might be that some Gentiles disliked Jews and needed to repent in that regard.
But Peter demanded no repentance of the Gentiles while they believed onto salvation by simply believing in the crucified Christ.
Its the Jews where repentance became the issue in entering into what their bias and prejudices were fighting it.

In other words? We do not have to repent of our sins to be saved. That would be salvation by works..

 

[Genez]

How do you deal with the phrase...WHOM He foreknowledge versus WHAT He foreknew?

Foreknowledge is not something that make what is to be, is to be.
It simply acknowledges what is to be.

 

[Cameron143]

Foreknowledge is not something that make what is to be, is to be.
It simply acknowledges what is to be.

I don't disagree. But the Bible speaks of WHOM God foreknew and not WHAT God foreknew. I was wondering your thoughts on this.

 

[Johann]

In other words? We do not have to repent of our sins to be saved. That would be salvation by works..

The Bible clearly tells us that we are saved by the grace of God, not by our works (Ephesians 2:8). So the answer is, “NO, repentance is not a work.” Sadly, the misunderstanding of this word has led many to reject the need for repentance in salvation because they define repentance as “turning from sin,” and call that a work. “Turning from sin” is technically not what the word means.
https://reasonsforhopejesus.com/rep...ch …-,Is Repentance a Work? ,-by Shari Abbott

 

[sawdust]

I don't disagree. But the Bible speaks of WHOM God foreknew and not WHAT God foreknew. I was wondering your thoughts on this.

He knew us as being believers. If I could see the future I would know who my friends are and who are not. I would be avoiding the enemies if I could.

 

[BillyBob]

Your answer is very incomplete, with all due respect. Isn't the new birth (regeneration) necessary to give life to dead souls in order that they may believe (Jn 3:1-21)? If Nicodemus could not see (understand) the kingdom of God until he was born again, then how could he understand the gospel of the kingdom?

You are correct! When I became a believer, I believed in God, (that was not the problem), it was more of a trust issue that I had. I felt that I was so vile that God would never take me to himself, that I was beyond saving.

When I thought back on my life, I knew that I had broken every law that God had given. I may not have actually killed anyone, but I had done it in my heart. I just could not believe that a loving God could ever forgive me.

But that day in as I sat in church I learned that there is nothing that God cannot do, no person so vile that the cannot be saved, If the axe-head floats! It melted my heart the minute I heard that message. That was 30 years ago................... Yes, I'm still a sinner – but I am a forgiven sinner. Thanks be to God!

 

[Cameron143]

He knew us as being believers. If I could see the future I would know who my friends are and who are not. I would be avoiding the enemies if I could.

I think it's a little more intimate than that. The One who took the time to knit you together in the womb probably knows His own in every detail.

 

[Rufus]

That to some seems fine at first glance.

But, Romans 1:18-21 shows that God's grace was applied to those who God knew would not believe as well.
For, without grace they could not know God is real!

Romans 1:18-21​

​

​

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness ​

and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress ​

the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, ​

because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, ​

his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ​

ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. ​

So they are without excuse. ​

​

For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give ​

thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their ​

foolish hearts were darkened.​

They became evil spinners of the truth as their means to shed the Truth God had made them by grace to know.
The grace of God got them to the place where they knew God!
They resisted the work of grace!

That of which you speak is not saving grace; it is common grace that is given to all mankind. No one can truly believe the gospel and repent of their sins until an inner supernatural work occurs in their soul.

The Gr. term "ginosko" (knew) in v. 21 has a wide variety of applications. It can simply mean "perceived" or "aware" as opposed to a personal, intimate knowledge. And the context of chapter 1 certainly precludes this latter application since what they "knew" about God was from Natural Revelation.

 

[Rufus]

You are correct! When I became a believer, I believed in God, (that was not the problem), it was more of a trust issue that I had. I felt that I was so vile that God would never take me to himself, that I was beyond saving.

When I thought back on my life, I knew that I had broken every law that God had given. I may not have actually killed anyone, but I had done it in my heart. I just could not believe that a loving God could ever forgive me.

But that day in as I sat in church I learned that there is nothing that God cannot do, no person so vile that the cannot be saved, If the axe-head floats! It melted my heart the minute I heard that message. That was 30 years ago................... Yes, I'm still a sinner – but I am a forgiven sinner. Thanks be to God!

Amen to that, brother! And Praise the Lord for his tender mercies and compassion!

I literally marvel at God's incomprehensible grace every day of my life. I believe it in my heart of hearts, yet I cannot comprehend the width, depth or height of it. And I probably never will, even when in my glorified state. The only thing I know for dead certain is that once I was lost, then God FOUND me! I can never boast of finding him, or loving him first, or coming to faith that obligated Him to save a wretch like me!

 

[Rufus]

He knew us as being believers. If I could see the future I would know who my friends are and who are not. I would be avoiding the enemies if I could.

But the text doesn't say that. That is your assumption. Moreover, God "foreknows" nothing! All knowledge resides innately, eternally, spontaneously, instantaneously and simultaneously in Him. The term "foreknew" is simply an anthropomorphism to accommodate our finite understanding. Therefore, what the text is really saying "whom God knew" [in eternity]. And the kind of knowledge God has of all his elect is a personal, affectionate, loving, intimate kind, such as the kind of knowledge a husband would have of his wife.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The Bible clearly tells us that we are saved by the grace of God, not by our works (Ephesians 2:8). So the answer is, “NO, repentance is not a work.” Sadly, the misunderstanding of this word has led many to reject the need for repentance in salvation because they define repentance as “turning from sin,” and call that a work. “Turning from sin” is technically not what the word means.
https://reasonsforhopejesus.com/repentance-work/#:~:text=Search …-,Is Repentance a Work? ,-by Shari Abbott

Is this a letter Paul has wrote or is Paul actually speaking to anyone. Through out Ephesians one, i don't actually see anyone speaking back to him.

Ephesians 1

As we see here Paul is talking about a certain group of people, is he talking to them or writing a letter.


Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Ephesus,[a] the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Notice it's tilted to God's holy people.

Is this a letter

2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


Skipping a few verses he says this

he[b] predestined us for adoption

So is he just talking about theese group of holy people here.

That actually some people really have been predestined

Skipping a few more verses

In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory

Again is this Paul speaking to the group of holy people, or is this Paul writing a letter.

As he say we where predestined.


For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

Reading this looks like Paul is not actually speaking to anyone but writing a letter.

The next part of my question is why does he need to remind holy people they are saved by Grace.

I'll explain more on that later.

 

[Genez]

The Bible clearly tells us that we are saved by the grace of God, not by our works (Ephesians 2:8). So the answer is, “NO, repentance is not a work.” Sadly, the misunderstanding of this word has led many to reject the need for repentance in salvation because they define repentance as “turning from sin,” and call that a work. “Turning from sin” is technically not what the word means.
https://reasonsforhopejesus.com/repentance-work/#:~:text=Search …-,Is Repentance a Work? ,-by Shari Abbott

When needed, the repentance usually involved thinking against Christ (Jews), or some religious stronghold today like Catholics thinking they are already saved by works ... Repentance was not necessarily about personal sins, but maybe a sinful lifestyle like witchcraft telling them not to do it.

The power to over come sin follows regeneration.

One can suddenly (by the indwelling Spirit) find themself able to resist a sin that used to enslave them.
But, we can not repent of a sin for salvation. Inversely we can enter salvation which would enable us to be delivered from a sin.

 

[sawdust]

But the text doesn't say that. That is your assumption. Moreover, God "foreknows" nothing! All knowledge resides innately, eternally, spontaneously, instantaneously and simultaneously in Him. The term "foreknew" is simply an anthropomorphism to accommodate our finite understanding. Therefore, what the text is really saying "whom God knew" [in eternity]. And the kind of knowledge God has of all his elect is a personal, affectionate, loving, intimate kind, such as the kind of knowledge a husband would have of his wife.

Yeah, that's why I referred to us as being God's friends. He knows us, He's always knowing us, it's not hard to understand. And because He knows us, He knows where and when to put us to His best advantage.

He doesn't choose who believes and who doesn't believe as some tend to think. That's not pre-destination. The doctrine has absolutely no application for unbelievers.

 

[Genez]

That of which you speak is not saving grace; it is common grace that is given to all mankind. No one can truly believe the gospel and repent of their sins until an inner supernatural work occurs in their soul.

The Gr. term "ginosko" (knew) in v. 21 has a wide variety of applications. It can simply mean "perceived" or "aware" as opposed to a personal, intimate knowledge. And the context of chapter 1 certainly precludes this latter application since what they "knew" about God was from Natural Revelation.

In Romans 1, it is "epignosis." They knew without a doubt.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said: That's because your assertions went right over the bible and did not comport with reasonable rules of comprehension and logic applied to the bible.

Yeah?-please show me where my "assertions" went right OVER the D'varim-can you do that? I'll be waiting.
J.

I showed that your reading comprehension and logic were poor in a previous post to PennEd..

PaulThomson said:
Paul does not say "He chose each of us (ekaston hEmOn) in Christ before the foundation of the world." He says "He chose us (hEmas), i.e. the community of the church, in Christ before the foundation of the world; not specific individuals before the foundation of the world, who ended up added to the church.
If Paul were referring to each individual, he could have used the Greek word ekastos to say each. He didn't. So don't read ekastos into the text when it is not there.
When someone reports that a rioting mob marched down Main Street and they burned down 25 businesses, do they mean that each one burned down 25 shops? According to you the answer is yes, because obviously they is made up of individuals.

When someone reports the theft of a recovered truck full of cheeses, that they (the cheeses) were stolen in the recovered delivery truck from Main Street before 2 am on Thursday for distribution to cafes in the neighbouring county the next day, does that mean that each cheese was individually selected by brand name and packet weight at the time the truck was stolen? According to you the theives knew each cheese by name because a truckload of cheese (they) is obviously made up of individual cheeses.

Your problem is that you are applying a severe lack of reading comprehension and a poor understanding of logic to wrested biblical texts in order to prop up a systematic theology you were taught which was never based on competent reading comprehension and logic in the first place.

You are also confusing "adoption as sons" which Paul says specifically is the resurrection of the saints which will happen at the end of the age; vs. being born into God's family as new babes in Christ happening 2000 years before the adoption as sons.

"5 "... having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will..."

The us is the saints Paul is addressing who are already children of God, but are predestined for adoption as sons at the resurrection. Again you are suffering from poor reading comprehension and a poor understanding of logic.

 

[Nehemiah6]

But that is exactly what he said. Repentance for the Jew and faith for the Gentile.

But that is not exactly what Paul said. Paul said for BOTH -- repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Read it again VERY SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY.

 

[Genez]

What kind of nonsense is this? Please take careful note: Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks* [Gentiles], repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21)

The repentance is not in regards to sin as some preach today.
It was meaning having a change in thinking towards God.

While that is true.. I was speaking about what took place after Pentecost when Gentiles were preached to. They were not told to repent and be saved. Jews were given that kind of message because they needed to change their thinking in regards to having a resistance to accepting Jesus because of the religious preaching they had been hearing about Him. Its that kind difference of specific repentance between the Gentiles and Jews being witnessed to that I was pointing out.

Please find a passage that was given after Pentecost where Gentiles were told to repent and to believe?
You will find it given for Jews only.

Just the same. I might have missed something. So, please. If you know some passage with a message about repentance being given by an apostle or evangelist directed to a crowd of Gentiles? I would not want to remain ignorant of it..

grace and peace ........

 

[Genez]

What kind of nonsense is this? Please take careful note: Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks* [Gentiles], repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21)

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Acts 2:36-38

Their sins *specifically* was concerning having been guilty of having crucified Jesus. It was not about their personal sins like preachers harp upon today. We do need to recognize that we are sinners in need of salvation. Not in need of repenting of what we must first receive the power needed to deal with, that being, our personal sins..

 

[Genez]

I don't disagree. But the Bible speaks of WHOM God foreknew and not WHAT God foreknew. I was wondering your thoughts on this.

Not sure what you may be getting at. Has someone landed a concept on you that does not sit right with you?

 

[Cameron143]

Not sure what you may be getting at. Has someone landed a concept on you that does not sit right with you?

I'm not confused. I'm asking for your perspective. Does it make a difference that scripture speaks in terms of who God foreknew and not what God foreknew?