Predestination is misunderstood...

Genez · Feb 18, 2024

But, if your flesh is encapsulating all those qualities? How can they function as they should?

For it says.....

For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh;

these are opposed to each other, so that you don’t do what you want." Gal 5:17

Before you were regenerated your flesh enslaved your soul.

When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness." Rom 6:20

Before regeneration Grace needed to silence our flesh in order for our soul to be "made free" to choose to believe.

Without God supplying his Grace at the point of salvation? No one could believe!

That's where Calvinism got messed up, and over simplified the answer by making God forcing us to believe by what was euphoniously labelled "irresistible grace." In doing so? It skewed what was going on with us when presented the Gospel.

Grace enables our soul to be free of the flesh when we in ourselves are helpless and too weak to do what God deems as right.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest

on me." 2 Corinthians 12:9

Too many Christians do not know what grace is. They have romanticized its meaning, and in sentimentality have morphed it into meaning God's mercy and love. Grace is POWER! The power to believe and to live the Christian way of Life!

Grace is POWER! The power given us to believe and enabling us to live the Christian way of Life!

grace and peace .........................

Johann · Feb 18, 2024

Genez said:

The belief in the gospel is a complex topic that has been discussed by theologians and philosophers. Some argue that belief in the gospel is produced by cognitive faculties that are functioning properly, while others emphasize the role of trust and entrusting oneself to the message of the gospel. The concept of faith is often central to this discussion, with some arguing that faith is not belief without evidence, but rather a state of trust in the gospel message.
George MacDonald, a Christian theologian, emphasized the importance of trusting the teachings of Jesus Christ and the need to learn from Christ Himself. He argued that true faith is not founded in stupidity or indifference to the truth, but in a genuine understanding of the teachings of Christ
2
.
In a philosophical context, some have argued that faith is not simply belief without evidence, but rather a state of trust that involves venturing and entrusting oneself to the object of faith. This perspective emphasizes that faith always has an object and is not simply a belief without evidence
3
.
The discussion of belief in the gospel and the role of faith is a complex and multifaceted issue, with various perspectives and interpretations. It involves philosophical, theological, and personal considerations, and the understanding of faith and belief can vary among individuals and religious traditions.

J.

Johann · Feb 18, 2024

Genez said:

The doctrine of irresistible grace, also known as effectual calling or efficacious grace, is a theological concept that asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom God has determined to save, and it overcomes their resistance to obey the gospel, bringing them to faith in Christ
1
. This doctrine is particularly associated with Calvinism.
Scriptural support for irresistible grace includes:

John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

Acts 16:14: "The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul."

Ephesians 2:1-5: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ..."

Philippians 2:12-13: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

Titus 3:5: "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."
These verses, among others, suggest that God's grace is irresistible in that it inevitably brings about the salvation of those whom God has chosen, and it is God who works in the hearts of the elect to bring them to faith

. However, it is important to note that the term "irresistible grace" does not imply that people are forced to accept Christ against their will, but rather that God's grace is so powerful that it overcomes the resistance of those whom God has chosen to save.

J.

Rufus · Feb 18, 2024

Nehemiah6 said:

Your answer is very incomplete, with all due respect. Isn't the new birth (regeneration) necessary to give life to dead souls in order that they may believe (Jn 3:1-21)? If Nicodemus could not see (understand) the kingdom of God until he was born again, then how could he understand the gospel of the kingdom?

And what about the gift of faith (Eph 2:8; Phil 1:29)

Re your 1st point: The Gospel alone is not sufficient to bring men to Christ, as men must be born of the "water" and the "spirit".

Re your 2nd and 6th points: Even those of the Reformed Tradition of the Faith also believe those things. So what is your point to each?

Re your 3rd point: Moral/spiritual obligation does not imply ability to obey.

Re your 4th: What if God gently and lovingly woos us to himself by making us willing in the day of his power (Ps 110:3)?

Re your 5th: Did not God choose one nation in the OT to reveal himself and with which to enter into a covenant relationship (Deut 7:7-9)? And did not Christ elect (choose) his disciples (Jn 15:16)? So, how can you say that God either has no elect, or his election is contingent on [spiritually] dead sinners electing him first? If the latter, is that how Jacob was saved (Rom 9:10-15)?

Nehemiah6 · Feb 18, 2024

Rufus said:

You have REVERSED the sequence of events. The New Birth comes only after a person receives the gift of the Holy Spirit, and that only happens after a person repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. But it you wish to hang on the the false gospel of the Calvinists, no one will stop you.

John146 · Feb 18, 2024

ForestGreenCook said:

Have you built an ark? Why not? Do you offer animal sacrifices? Why not? Have you gone to Nineveh to tell them in 40 days they will be overthrown? Why not? Should I go on?

There are divisions within the OT and there are divisions within the NT. Applying doctrine not meant for the body of Christ is dangerous. Following the wrong spokesman is dangerous.

Genez · Feb 18, 2024

SomeDisciple said:

We are missing a point here.
God did not predestine us to believe.
He predestined us because He knew we would believe!

God already knows that when given his grace to free our soul from the sin nature, how we will wish to choose.
Since He already knows who will choose to believe?
God chose out from all those whom He knows will choose to believe only certain ones He destined to be born
in the OT days, and destined to be born in the Church age... and the Tribulation period...

Those whom God predestined to be born during the Church age?
By default, were predestined to be "In Christ" when they believed.

In that manner, He predestined us to be In Christ....

I hope its not complex once its explained according to what the Scripture does tell us...

Its really simple once it sinks in by grace.

grace and peace .............

Cameron143 · Feb 18, 2024

Genez said:

We are missing a point here.
God did not predestine us to believe.
He predestined us because He knew we would believe!

God already knows that when given his grace to free our soul from the sin nature, how we will wish to choose.
Since He already knows who will choose to believe?
God chose out from all those whom He knows will choose to believe only certain ones He destined to be born
in the OT days, and destined to be born in the Church age... and the Tribulation period...

Those whom God predestined to be born during the Church age?
By default, were predestined to be "In Christ" when they believed.

In that manner, He predestined us to be In Christ....

I hope its not complex once its explained according to what the Scripture does tell us...

Its really simple once it sinks in by grace.

grace and peace .............

How do you deal with the phrase...WHOM He foreknowledge versus WHAT He foreknew?

Thunderrr-mental · Feb 18, 2024

Johann said:

maybe all there short of is a positive charge 😋

Rufus · Feb 18, 2024

Genez said:

Wow! Sadly, I don't see very many Christians today with that kind of understanding of Grace! Kudos to you...but even more importantly I thank God for the grace he has given you to understand this incredibly aweseome truth. Other passages that teach this truth are Eph 3:20; 2Tim 1:8; Phil 3:10.

However, as firm believer in the Five Doctrines of Grace, I don't personally know of any fellow-Calvinist who believes that God "forces" anyone to believe the gospel and repent of their sins. And I certainly don't. Do you think Jer 31:33 or Ezek 36: 25-27 teaches that God "forces" his will upon anyone? Yet, the latter passage teaches that God will put his Spirit into his people and "cause" them to follow his decrees and laws.

Rufus · Feb 18, 2024

Nehemiah6 said:

The new birth, sir, is the gift of the Holy Spirit! That is when a believer is raised from the dead spiritually! (This is the doctrine of regeneration.) The spiritually dead are as powerless spiritually as the physically dead are powerless physically! Moreover, in John 3, Jesus didn't teach Nicodemus what you assert above. Jesus in that passage is not telling him that he must do something, but rather something but rather something must be done to him BEFORE he can even comprehend the kingdom of God.

ForestGreenCook · Feb 18, 2024

John146 said:

The old testament is full of scripture about Jesus and his coming to earth.

sawdust · Feb 18, 2024

Rufus said:

The new birth is being born of the Spirit, not the Spirit Himself. He doesn't give birth to Himself but gives birth to our spirit.

John 3:6
What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Genez · Feb 18, 2024

Nehemiah6 said:

Not everyone needs to repent and believe. You will see Jews being told to repent and believe because their religious propaganda
was setting them up to reject Jesus. They needed to change their mind about Christ first. "To repent."

In contrast to the Jews... Gentiles were not told to repent and believe.

Gentiles were simply allowed to believe while hearing about Jesus.

Why?

To "repent" meant to change one's thinking on a matter. The Jews who thought they knew God had been propagandized by religion
in a way that made them resistive to accepting Jesus as their Messiah. It was the Jews who needed to "repent" of their wrong thinking
and to then accept the truth about Jesus Christ...

Check in Acts when the Gospel message was being given to Jews, and when it was being given to a Gentile crowd. It was the Jews who were told they needed to repent and to believe. One crowd before Peter giving the Gospel were not told to repent. They were not even told to believe. They simply believed while Peter was telling the Gospel and simply believed and were saved without being told to repent....

"But God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused

him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by

witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and

drank with him after he rose from the dead. He commanded us

to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom

God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the

prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him

receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came

on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who

had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy

Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles." Acts 10:40-45

No one was told they needed to repent of anything...
Those Gentiles were saved while simply believing the message!

grace and peace ................

Genez · Feb 18, 2024

sawdust said:

That confusion leads many believers today to believe that Jews who believed before the Church age began were not born of the Spirit.
That Moses was not born again.

Nicodemus was a Jew of the OT dispensation at the time when Jesus told him that he needed to be born again.
Jesus made no mention that Nicodemus needed to wait to be born again which is wrongly assumed to have taken place at Pentecost.

Pentecost brought in the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" for those had been regenerate already like Peter experienced.
Peter and the other believer disciples were born again before Pentecost took place.

Pentecost brought in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Prior to Pentecost all who believed were simply regenerated by being "born again"
without receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a special gift for the Bride of Christ, not OT believers.

Don't let it get you too frustrated.

grace and peace ...............

PennEd · Feb 18, 2024

Genez said:

Please see post 219 for your answer.

Nehemiah6 · Feb 18, 2024

Genez said:

What kind of nonsense is this? Please take careful note: Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks* [Gentiles], repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21)
Strong's Concordance
Hellén: a Greek, usually a name for a Gentile
Original Word: Ἕλλην, ηνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: Hellén
Phonetic Spelling: (hel'-lane)
Definition: a Greek, usually a name for a Gentile
Usage: a Hellene, the native word for a Greek; it is, however, a term wide enough to include all Greek-speaking (i.e. educated) non-Jews.

sawdust · Feb 18, 2024

Nehemiah6 said:

But that is exactly what he said. Repentance for the Jew and faith for the Gentile. How can a Gentile's thinking about the Messiah be wrong and need changing if they have never been told in the first place?

Genez · Feb 18, 2024

Johann said:

Its not complex.....

What makes it seem complex are the speculations. Ideas that are made because sound doctrines are not yet being correlated
in a logical order...

Its only having the Truth that will make you free. That is..
Make you free after the truth does its work on you.

When ignorance leaves us in doubt of the truth?
What we end up is the equivalent of students handing in papers for creative writing class.
That is not to say we should not be creative in expounding on what is to be understood.
Just make sure it is truth and not speculative, subjective, fiction. That requires time and patience in God's leading.

The ways to screw up a doctrine is found on the road that is broad and wide.
Many will like what is offered according to what sits well with their own way of thinking.

To nail it? Few will find it.
That is the fruit of sticking to the strait and narrow.

God must lead by the Spirit to find it. Impossible to find otherwise..

Too many think they are led, but fail to test the spirits leading them

And,

life goes on according to God's plan.....

grace and peace .............................

Genez · Feb 18, 2024

Johann said:

That to some seems fine at first glance.

But, Romans 1:18-21 shows that God's grace was applied to those who God knew would not believe as well.
For, without grace they could not know God is real!

Romans 1:18-21

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness

and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress

the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them,

because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely,

his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived,

ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.

So they are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give

thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their

foolish hearts were darkened.

They became evil spinners of the truth as their means to shed the Truth God had made them by grace to know.
The grace of God got them to the place where they knew God!
They resisted the work of grace!

Predestination is misunderstood...

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