The Security Of The Believer

[Cameron143]

So how would you understand Galatians 6:8-9?
How about 1 Timothy 5:8?
What about John 15:6?
Please give me a word for word commentary on these verses.

Side Note:

Please keep in mind that Jesus says in John 15:2 that every branch IN ME that bears not fruit.
IN ME. They are IN THE VINE and they are not bearing fruit.
So how would you explain this one away?

John 15.....
Reveals the intimacy of the relationship between Christ and the believer. They are a part of Him. It also reveals the great care God exercises in the lives of His children.
The symbolism of husbandry is employed to show how God works in the believers life. The vine is of course Jesus and in salvation we are grafted into Him. But we are not like Him. We must be conformed to His image. So the things about us that don't conform are cut off. And as His life begins to flow into us, we begin to bear fruit. But to produce a better harvest, we are continually being conformed or purged.
As a result of this relationship, verse 3 says we are clean. Verse 4 says He now abides in us, and we in Him. In this relationship abiding is all we can do because we are no longer unassisted. Our whole existence now is tied to Christ. We have no existence other than in Him. We can do nothing apart from Him. This is how intimately the believer is tied to Jesus.
Now we come to verse 6. Note carefully what it says...if any man abide not in me...Who is this referring to? It can't be the believer. All believers abide in Christ. Their whole existence is tied to Him. It is speaking of unbelievers. They are the ones who aren't abiding in Christ. Notice it doesn't call them branches. It merely says they are cast forth as a branch...meaning they are cast away in the same manner that the unsuitable parts of the believer are. The symbolism of the fire is representative of judgment.
Verse 7 picks up again on the intimate relationship between the believer and Jesus. Lots more there but this should get you started.
Again, context is key and wording is important. A quick read can lead one to believe the verse is speaking about the believer...but it's not. If you weren't predisposed to believe that believers aren't secure in Christ, you might have investigated a little more thoroughly. A relationship with Christ in Him is no small thing.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes, this is my premise because unbelievers are not saved. If one is worse than an unbeliever they are not saved because the bar at being an unbeliever is one being lost. So if you do not provide for your own, you have denied the faith, and are worse than an unbeliever. You cannot deny the faith, and be saved and you cannot be worse than an unbeliever who is not saved. Pretty basic and simple verse to figure out if you ask me. You’re just denying the basic premise of this verse because it does not agree with OSAS (Which is man made). The verse is beautiful one by the Lord our God because He engineered in such a way that you cannot twist it to refer to fake believers (Which is the common excuse used by many in your camp when you run into certain verses that refute OSAS). An unbeliever cannot be worse than another unbeliever in context of this letter because Paul is writing to a believer and not an unbeliever. He is saying that the believer can be worse than an unbeliever by their wrong actions. A fake believer would simply be an unbeliever. The verse only makes sense if it is a believer. No unbeliever can be worse than an unbeliever. That is a contradictory statement. Yes, one unbeliever can be worse than another one, but that is not what it is saying. It is saying anyone who does not provide for his own (talking to believers) is worse than an unbeliever. This proves conditional salvation and not OSAS.

Correct...you cannot not care for your family and be a believer. You can say you are but it isn't true; your very actions prove that you actually deny the faith you are professing. What it doesn't say is that you are saved, didn't take responsibility for them, and lost your salvation. Rather, you were never saved to begin with.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

I don't like people who believe in eternal security being associated to Hitler, and neither should you, as for my beliefs I haven't even started to discuss them yet ☕

But think about this. If one can sin and still be saved because they have Eternal Security and nothing (not even sin can separate you from God), then how is any less evil than Hitler and his regime? If Hitler believed in Jesus and Eternal Security he could have slaughtered the Jews while declaring he was saved because of his belief on Jesus. Granted, he would have been a Hyper Grace Christian, but the point here is that no version of Eternal Security actually upholds any kind of moral standard as taught in the Bible. Even the regular Light Version of Eternal Security still believes one can sin and still be saved on a lesser level. Confession of sin and forsaking sin is not how you remedy sin in the worldview of Eternal Security. Warnings of sin by Jesus like in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, and Luke 9:62? Yeah, doesn’t matter, you got your Eternal Security get out of hell card. Just believe in Jesus as your Savior and step over the cries of the poor. No worries. Just look at some of the replies here and their defense of sin with the thinking they are still saved.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Correct...you cannot not care for your family and be a believer. You can say you are but it isn't true; your very actions prove that you actually deny the faith you are professing. What it doesn't say is that you are saved, didn't take responsibility for them, and lost your salvation. Rather, you were never saved to begin with.

Nope. You cannot play that card. A fake believer would be an unbeliever and an unbeliever cannot be worse than an unbeliever. A fake believer cannot also deny the faith if they never had the faith to begin with.

 

[Cameron143]

Nope. You cannot play that card. A fake believer would be an unbeliever and an unbeliever cannot be worse than an unbeliever. A fake believer cannot also deny the faith if they never had the faith to begin with.

Look again. They profess to be believers, but their actions aren't in keeping with what the faith says believers do. In this way, while they profess faith with their mouths, their actions deny the reality of true faith.
This isn't a new thing. There have always been people associated with God who draw nigh with their lips while their hearts are far from Him. If you weren't already predisposed to believe otherwise, you would acknowledge the truth of this.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

How about we take one at a time?
Galatians 6:8-9...
Pretty straightforward...those who sow to the flesh reap corruption; those who sow to the Spirit reap life.
So one might ask themselves a few questions:
What does it mean to sow to the Spirit? What is involved in sowing to the Spirit? Who, even, is it who can sow to the Spirit? And who exactly is the Apostle speaking to and for what purpose?
The audience is the Galatian church...so saved people. This is important because he speaks both of sowing to the flesh and Spirit. This means that both are possibilities for God's people.
Next, it is helpful to see what led Paul up to these verses. He begins verse 1 with restoration for those who have sinned. He is obviously concerned that Christians sin and lose fellowship. And he admonishes others to the task of restoration. But he desires each not to come to such a point and reminds them that they are to carry their own burden. In other words, do what is necessary to not be in the place of needing restoration and causing others to be burdened. And so he teaches them how it works. If they sow to the flesh, it will again bring them to corruption and a need for restoration. If they sow to the Spirit, they will be experiencing eternal life. As eternal life is knowing God and Christ...John 17:3, they are in fellowship and do not need to be restored.

Just as an aside, choosing verses and taking them out of context always leads to doctrinal error. We are all guilty of it at times, more concerned to prove our position than to be faithful to scripture.
I'll get to the other scriptures shortly. I'm genuinely excited about John 15 because as I was looking them over earlier, God shared some things I hadn't previously understood.

This is a gross misinterpretation of Scripture. You are reading Eternal Security into this passage when it does not teach such a thing. Looking at the broader context, including Galatians 5 like Galatians 5:19-21, and Galatians 5:2-4 helps us to see the broader picture here in regards to those who sow to the flesh reaping corruption. Galatians 5:19 says, “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,” Paul says that they which do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Meaning, they will not be saved. So when Galatians 6:8 says “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; “ he is referring to the same thing. The word “flesh” in Galatians 6:8 is a reference to sin here like it is in Galatians 5:19-21. One is not saved if they do not inherit the Kingdom of God because of doing various sins. This is the idea behind one reaping corruption In Galatians 6:8.

Galatians 6:8 also says that he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Life everlasting is salvation. This is the most plainest child like reading of the verse here. Verse 9 (Galatians 6:9) says let us not be weary (tired) in well doing (good works), for if we reap, we will reap (eternal life) if we faint not (don’t give up). Meaning, we have to sow to the Spirit in doing good works to reap life everlasting (salvation). We will reap this promise if we faint not or give up on sowing to the Spirit in doing good works (well doing). That is the most child-like basic reading of this passage. Twisting it to fit OSAS is just wrong. You are reading OSAS into the text and you are not drawing any meaning out of the text in what it is plainly saying. But of course a sin and still be saved type belief is hard to let go of. Sin is pleasurable and so folks will do their best to defend it (Even though it is totally unnatural to God’s Word).

The devil said to Eve, “You will not die“ in context to breaking God’s command.
This same lie is pushed today by most of Christianity.

Not sure why people just don’t see it.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Look again. They profess to be believers, but their actions aren't in keeping with what the faith says believers do. In this way, while they profess faith with their mouths, their actions deny the reality of true faith.
This isn't a new thing. There have always been people associated with God who draw nigh with their lips while their hearts are far from Him. If you weren't already predisposed to believe otherwise, you would acknowledge the truth of this.

No. That’s not what the verse says. You are changing the Bible to fit OSAS. Again, a person who is a fake believer is not really a believer and so they are an unbeliever. An unbeliever cannot be worse than an unbeliever. This is what your not getting.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

John 15.....
Reveals the intimacy of the relationship between Christ and the believer. They are a part of Him. It also reveals the great care God exercises in the lives of His children.
The symbolism of husbandry is employed to show how God works in the believers life. The vine is of course Jesus and in salvation we are grafted into Him. But we are not like Him. We must be conformed to His image. So the things about us that don't conform are cut off. And as His life begins to flow into us, we begin to bear fruit. But to produce a better harvest, we are continually being conformed or purged.
As a result of this relationship, verse 3 says we are clean. Verse 4 says He now abides in us, and we in Him. In this relationship abiding is all we can do because we are no longer unassisted. Our whole existence now is tied to Christ. We have no existence other than in Him. We can do nothing apart from Him. This is how intimately the believer is tied to Jesus.
Now we come to verse 6. Note carefully what it says...if any man abide not in me...Who is this referring to? It can't be the believer. All believers abide in Christ. Their whole existence is tied to Him. It is speaking of unbelievers. They are the ones who aren't abiding in Christ. Notice it doesn't call them branches. It merely says they are cast forth as a branch...meaning they are cast away in the same manner that the unsuitable parts of the believer are. The symbolism of the fire is representative of judgment.
Verse 7 picks up again on the intimate relationship between the believer and Jesus. Lots more there but this should get you started.
Again, context is key and wording is important. A quick read can lead one to believe the verse is speaking about the believer...but it's not. If you weren't predisposed to believe that believers aren't secure in Christ, you might have investigated a little more thoroughly. A relationship with Christ in Him is no small thing.

No. That doesn’t fit the context.

Lets look at John 15:2.

John 15:2 says,

”Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.”​

So we see here that the branch was IN THE VINE (JESUS), and yet this branch did not bear fruit and He takes it away.
John 15:6 says that the branch that does not bear fruit is cast forth and thrown into the fire (i.e., the Lake of Fire).

Side Note:

Keep in mind that there are other OSAS believers who have tried to undo what John 15:6 says by using a different explanation.
This just shows you are not accepting the plain reading of the text in what it says but you are trying to insert OSAS into this text when no OSAS statements are present.

 

[Cameron143]

No. That’s not what the verse says. You are changing the Bible to fit OSAS. Again, a person who is a fake believer is not really a believer and so they are an unbeliever. An unbeliever cannot be worse than an unbeliever. This is what your not getting.

You can keep disagreeing, but I went through every verse you offered and explained in detail what they mean in context. You didn't even take the time to respond to all of them. But believe as you like. Grace and peace.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

none of this changes how sick you are

And this is simply a false accusation. You are simply attacking me because you are confronted with how your belief is immoral.
I am glad you are upset because it shows you have some kind of heart. There are Christians I have talked with who believe they can mow down a crowd with a machine gun and they believe they are still saved all because of Eternal Security. I would say that is sick.

Again, do you not believe no sin can separate you from God because of a belief in Jesus as your Savior or because of Eternal Security?
Then how is that different than the sins of Hitler and his regime? You’re not answering and so because you are not answering and you are just throwing unfounded accusations, it just shows that you all you have are insults and nothing else. The video exposes OSAS for what it really is. We can go over the Scriptures that were mentioned in the video and the points that were made. They were all true. I have been falsely called a Works Salvationist. But that is not entirely accurate to what I believe about God’s plan of salvation. But “Works Salvationists” was thrown out as an insult towards us who do not believe in Eternal Security in the video. False accusations are also sick. But I have seen the false accusations towards me many times over the years involving this topic.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

You can keep disagreeing, but I went through every verse you offered and explained in detail what they mean in context. You didn't even take the time to respond to all of them. But believe as you like. Grace and peace.

Not true. I did reply to each of your replies. They don’t hold water in the slightest sense. I believe my replies refuted your points.
You are reading OSAS into the text. That’s eisegesis and not exegesis. But we can agree to disagree of course.

May God’s love shine upon you today.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Your doctrine is getting more and more BIZARRE. John 15:6 must be interpreted in the light of all the CLEAR AND PLAIN Bible verses and passages which guarantee eternal security.

MATTHEW HENRY'S COMMENTARY ON JOHN 15:6
(1.) The doom of the unfruitful (v. 2): They are taken away. [1.] It is here intimated that there are many who pass for branches in Christ who yet do not bear fruit. Were they really united to Christ by faith, they would bear fruit; but being only tied to him by the thread of an outward profession, though they seem to be branches, they will soon be seen to be dry ones. Unfruitful professors are unfaithful professors; professors, and no more. It might be read, Every branch that beareth not fruit in me, and it comes much to one; for those that do not bear fruit in Christ, and in his Spirit and grace, are as if they bore no fruit at all, Hos. 10:1. [2.] It is here threatened that they shall be taken away, in justice to them and in kindness to the rest of the branches. From him that has not real union with Christ, and fruit produced thereby, shall be taken away even that which he seemed to have, Lu. 8:18. Some think this refers primarily to Judas.

There are many professing Christians, or those who were baptized as babies, who have never really repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, or received Him as Lord and Savior. If you ask them they will say that they are Christians. But there is no Christian fruit (the fruit of the Spirit being one group). The first epistle of John gives us the tests by which we will know if we are genuine branches or not.

Lets look at John 15:2.

John 15:2 says,

”Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.”​

So we see here that the branch was IN THE VINE (JESUS), and yet this branch did not bear fruit and He takes it away.
John 15:6 says that the branch that does not bear fruit is cast forth and thrown into the fire (i.e., the Lake of Fire).

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

And yet this has nothing to do with losing salvation. Ok, let's see really what the verse did say in v. 8. It is not what you sow but it is “of the Spirit reap life everlasting”. This indicates the origin of life everlasting which is the Spirit or “of the Spirit reap (acquire) life everlasting life. The text does not say” sow to the Holy Spirit you will reap life everlasting”, that is a far cry from the truth!

Nope. It says “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.“ (Galatians 6:8-9).

1. Verse 8 says, he that sows to his flesh shall reap corruption. This is analogous to the works of the flesh are manifest which are these in Galatians 5:19 (Which is in the previous chapter). Paul then lists various sins in Galatians 5:19-21 and he says that they which do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. That is what sowing to the flesh and reaping corruption is. One who will not inherit the Kingdom of God is not saved.
2. Verse 8 says he that sows to the Spirit shall reap life everlasting (salvation). Verse 9 defines more what this sowing to the Spirit is. It says let us not be weary (tired) in welling doing (good works), for we will reap if we faint not (don’t give up). Meaning let us not grow tired in doing good works by sowing to the Spirit, for we will reap everlasting life (salvation) if we faint not. This is the most child-like and plainest way to read this passage. Only if you have an OSAS belief or a sin and still be saved agenda does this passage get attacked to say something different than what it says plainly.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

The verse has nothing to do with life eternal, it is a present daily living of the saved. Living after the flesh is always against our spirit. They war each other, so dying and living here means becoming inactive or active in God’s service. You only have to choose whether to live or not to live according to the Holy Spirit’s will. This has nothing to do with “losing salvation”.

Not true. Lets read the verse.

Romans 8:13
”For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

It says if you live one way after the flesh (sin), you shall die (die spiritually).
This is contrasted with eternal life because it says if you put to death (mortify) the deeds of the body (sin) by the Holy Spirit, you will live (live eternally). The chapter talks about being glorified and never says that living is in regards to having an extension on life here on this Earth.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Sanctify, sanctification, holy, and holiness as seen in the scripture have three tenses. It occurs in the past life of believers to the point of salvation which is the work of the Holy Spirit. Presently, as in those verses above, the Holy Spirit is of course still at work in every believer, those who have already been saved. The Holy Spirit is at work molding believers to growth and service. He has to possess his vessel in the sanctification process. The saved must live a holy life in short.

But Eternal Security is not really about holy living according to the Bible because they don’t believe any sin can separate them from God.

 

[Fundaamental]

But think about this. If one can sin and still be saved because they have Eternal Security and nothing (not even sin can separate you from God), then how is any less evil than Hitler and his regime? If Hitler believed in Jesus and Eternal Security he could have slaughtered the Jews while declaring he was saved because of his belief on Jesus. Granted, he would have been a Hyper Grace Christian, but the point here is that no version of Eternal Security actually upholds any kind of moral standard as taught in the Bible. Even the regular Light Version of Eternal Security still believes one can sin and still be saved on a lesser level. Confession of sin and forsaking sin is not how you remedy sin in the worldview of Eternal Security. Warnings of sin by Jesus like in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, and Luke 9:62? Yeah, doesn’t matter, you got your Eternal Security get out of hell card. Just believe in Jesus as your Savior and step over the cries of the poor. No worries. Just look at some of the replies here and their defense of sin with the thinking they are still saved.

your sin is far greater than a lot of Christians I've talked to lately., at least most will repent, but you go one step further and justify it.

You are in no position to talk about another person's eternal security 🥱

 

[mailmandan]

your sin is far greater than a lot of Christians I've talked to lately., at least most will repent, but you go one step further and justify it.

You are in no position to talk about another person's eternal security 🥱

Some people certainly are overconfident of their own righteousness and seem to view themselves as "holier than thou" while looking down on and others and judging them. We also see this in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. (Luke 18:9-14) Yet we see that the tax collector went down to his house justified rather than the Pharisee; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

 

[Evmur]

But think about this. If one can sin and still be saved because they have Eternal Security and nothing (not even sin can separate you from God), then how is any less evil than Hitler and his regime? If Hitler believed in Jesus and Eternal Security he could have slaughtered the Jews while declaring he was saved because of his belief on Jesus. Granted, he would have been a Hyper Grace Christian, but the point here is that no version of Eternal Security actually upholds any kind of moral standard as taught in the Bible. Even the regular Light Version of Eternal Security still believes one can sin and still be saved on a lesser level. Confession of sin and forsaking sin is not how you remedy sin in the worldview of Eternal Security. Warnings of sin by Jesus like in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, and Luke 9:62? Yeah, doesn’t matter, you got your Eternal Security get out of hell card. Just believe in Jesus as your Savior and step over the cries of the poor. No worries. Just look at some of the replies here and their defense of sin with the thinking they are still saved.

The moral standard we believe is the righteousness of God. You are trying to establish your own righteousness, your moral right to be saved, the standard you use is your faithfulness,

That will not do.

Your doctrine if it depends in the smallest degree upon man must fail, your dependence upon the flesh guarantees failure.

Moreover all the while a man is trying to save himself God will back off. Man must as necessity come to a complete end of his work.

This was shadowed in the OT by the sabbath law. We live in the sabbath epoch. We must not work. God rested from His work of salvation when Jesus said "it is finished" we enter into His rest.

 

[Evmur]

Lets look at John 15:2.

John 15:2 says,

”Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.”​

So we see here that the branch was IN THE VINE (JESUS), and yet this branch did not bear fruit and He takes it away.
John 15:6 says that the branch that does not bear fruit is cast forth and thrown into the fire (i.e., the Lake of Fire).

more correctly "if any man abideth not in Me he is cast forth as a branch.

The distinction is clear the man who abideth God takes away [takes home]
he that abideth not is cast forth.

The branch of itself can do nothing ... what does a branch do? if it simply abides it ought to bear fruit. It doesn't do anything. If it started working [if it were even possible] it would probably harm the vine

 

[Fundaamental]

But Eternal Security is not really about holy living according to the Bible because they don’t believe any sin can separate them from God.

wrong I believe I will never commit a sin worthy enough of being sent to a long lasting place of punishment.

I also believe in eternal security because my faith is strong in believing in the lords word.

I also believe your using the word they far to much, which is how the false accuser operates🙂