The Security Of The Believer

[Bible_Highlighter]

You'll do anything except explain why the Fruit of the Spirit in Galatians isn't fruit.

Romans 6:22
”But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”

Servants to God and fruit unto holiness is definitely painting a picture of works to me.

Philippians 2:7-8
7 ”But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

Philippians 2:5
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus”

Just as Jesus was a servant and obeyed God the Father, we also must walk as Christ walked (1 John 2:5).
Jesus did many good works. In Ephesians 2:10, it says we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works. This is a part of us being a servant of God, whereby we have fruit (good works) unto holiness, and the end…. Everlasting life.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

your sick 🤢

If you knew the truth in God’s Word how OSAS is false and it wrong on many levels, you would see how the video preaches the truth spot on. Most I have talked with since 2010 online and in person do believe they can sin and still be saved by having a belief alone in Jesus. In Matthew 7:22-23: It should be no surprise that when Jesus tells certain believers to depart from Him it is because of their iniquity. Jesus actually gives them the reason why He is telling them to depart from Him in Matthew 7:23. He says it is iniquity. He drives the point home even more in Matthew 7:26-27. He says everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

What I liked in the video is that it alludes to John 15:2, which is a much neglected verse that even Conditionals generally do not even notice. If you were to pay attention, in John 15:2 Jesus refers to the branch that bears not fruit in how it is “IN ME.” Meaning, the branch was IN the vine, and it DID NOT BEAR FRUIT. So this means that you are not forced against your will (*Cough* Calvinism) to do good fruit. Yes, God ultimately does the good works through us. I am not denying that. The point is that we have to cooperate with the Lord Jesus (God) in doing good. If not, we will be cut off like a branch and thrown into the fire (John 15:6). This fire would be the Lake of Fire.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Here is a video I think folks should watch.
It uses verses and also explains OSAS and the problem of it.

It is approximately 4 minutes.
So it is not long.

I've seen the original "Downfall" movie, but the new subs were great, lol!


🍰

 

[NightTwister]

Romans 6:22
”But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”

Servants to God and fruit unto holiness is definitely painting a picture of works to me.

Philippians 2:7-8
7 ”But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

Philippians 2:5
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus”

Just as Jesus was a servant and obeyed God the Father, we also must walk as Christ walked (1 John 2:5).
Jesus did many good works. In Ephesians 2:10, it says we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works. This is a part of us being a servant of God, whereby we have fruit (good works) unto holiness, and the end…. Everlasting life.

Q.E.D.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Here is a video I think folks should watch.
It uses verses and also explains OSAS and the problem of it.

It is approximately 4 minutes.
So it is not long.

Adam at Abide in the Word Channel has some good videos, but I do not agree with his denial of the first aspect of salvation in being Initially saved by God’s grace through faith (which is a process of salvation without works). Adam only sees Sanctification as a part of salvation, which is the secondary aspect of salvation (If I am understanding him correctly). I also tried to talk to him once on a certain topic by email, and he was not friendly. So while he has some good videos and he appears nice on the videos, I just did not have a good experience with him behind the scenes. I do hope he changes in that regard. Nevertheless, he still has some great insights from time to time in the Word.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

I've seen the original "Downfall" movie, but the new subs were great, lol!


🍰

I am glad you enjoyed it.
One of my favorite parts was when John 15:2 was referenced loosely by one of Hitler’s soldiers when he was trying to convince Hitler.

He said,

“My leader, it says that the branches were IN Him.”​

Here is John 15:2.

John 15:2 says,

”Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.”​

So we see here that the branch was IN THE VINE (JESUS), and yet this branch did not bear fruit and He takes it away.
John 15:6 says that the branch that does not bear fruit is cast forth and thrown into the fire (i.e., the Lake of Fire).

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

John is making a public mockery of the religious leaders. He has been baptizing those who were truly sorrowful over their sins and were repenting. The Godly sorrow was the fruit produced by the Spirit. The repentance was evidence of that work. The religious leaders did not come in this manner. They came with the attitude that they were ok because they were Jews and Abraham is their father. But if Abraham truly was their father, they would have been repentant...they would have manifested the work of the Spirit in them.
Galatians 5:22-23 are important verses because they reveal that spiritual fruit is the work of the the Spirit. The Spirit alone can produce it. Christians are to bear fruit. And only Christians can bear fruit.
The Pharisees weren't bearing fruit because they didn't have the Spirit working in them. John knew. How? They weren't bearing fruit. Spiritual people recognize fruit.

Then John the Baptist would be lying. The teaching that they can bring forth fruits as a reference to good works is the point.
The idea is tied to John 15:6 in that if we do not do good works, we are cast into the fire (i.e., the Lake of Fire).
This point is repeated in the Parable of the Talents. The unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Doesn’t sound like a good place. But there are more things like this in Scripture. It doesn’t stop. But as Hitler cried in the OSAS video, “Works Salvationists!” Even though that is not exactly what we believe precisely. Works is only a part of our Sanctification, and it is only AFTER we are saved first by God’s grace through faith (Which is a process of salvation without works).

 

[Kroogz]

I think OSAS believers only tend to be believe some verses in the Bible and ignore other parts of it that are just as important.

I have noticed just the opposite of that.
John 10:28. A very clear and concise worded verse. Post that verse, and the loss of salvation believer won't touch it with a 10 meter cattle prod. They skip it and say, "well you have to look at this verse to see......." And never touch it.

John 10:27. I hear Him. I follow Him. He knows me. I am one of His sheep.

John 10:28. He gave me eternal life. He promises me I have eternal life and will NEVER perish. No way around that. It's a promise.

Loss of salvation can't deal with this simple truth. Because if they claim to be one of His sheep.......they have to deny "never perish"

And they know it, so they won't deal with the many verses that clearly say we are eternally secure in Him.

• John 6:39-40
• 1 John 5:1
• John 10:28-29
• Ephesians 1:12-14
• Romans 8:38-39
• Romans 11:29
• John 6:47
• John 3:36
• 1 John 5:13
• John 5:24

 

[Nehemiah6]

The idea is tied to John 15:6 in that if we do not do good works, we are cast into the fire (i.e., the Lake of Fire).

Your doctrine is getting more and more BIZARRE. John 15:6 must be interpreted in the light of all the CLEAR AND PLAIN Bible verses and passages which guarantee eternal security.

MATTHEW HENRY'S COMMENTARY ON JOHN 15:6
(1.) The doom of the unfruitful (v. 2): They are taken away. [1.] It is here intimated that there are many who pass for branches in Christ who yet do not bear fruit. Were they really united to Christ by faith, they would bear fruit; but being only tied to him by the thread of an outward profession, though they seem to be branches, they will soon be seen to be dry ones. Unfruitful professors are unfaithful professors; professors, and no more. It might be read, Every branch that beareth not fruit in me, and it comes much to one; for those that do not bear fruit in Christ, and in his Spirit and grace, are as if they bore no fruit at all, Hos. 10:1. [2.] It is here threatened that they shall be taken away, in justice to them and in kindness to the rest of the branches. From him that has not real union with Christ, and fruit produced thereby, shall be taken away even that which he seemed to have, Lu. 8:18. Some think this refers primarily to Judas.

There are many professing Christians, or those who were baptized as babies, who have never really repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, or received Him as Lord and Savior. If you ask them they will say that they are Christians. But there is no Christian fruit (the fruit of the Spirit being one group). The first epistle of John gives us the tests by which we will know if we are genuine branches or not.

 

[Cameron143]

So how would you understand Galatians 6:8-9?
How about 1 Timothy 5:8?
What about John 15:6?
Please give me a word for word commentary on these verses.

Side Note:

Please keep in mind that Jesus says in John 15:2 that every branch IN ME that bears not fruit.
IN ME. They are IN THE VINE and they are not bearing fruit.
So how would you explain this one away?

How about we take one at a time?
Galatians 6:8-9...
Pretty straightforward...those who sow to the flesh reap corruption; those who sow to the Spirit reap life.
So one might ask themselves a few questions:
What does it mean to sow to the Spirit? What is involved in sowing to the Spirit? Who, even, is it who can sow to the Spirit? And who exactly is the Apostle speaking to and for what purpose?
The audience is the Galatian church...so saved people. This is important because he speaks both of sowing to the flesh and Spirit. This means that both are possibilities for God's people.
Next, it is helpful to see what led Paul up to these verses. He begins verse 1 with restoration for those who have sinned. He is obviously concerned that Christians sin and lose fellowship. And he admonishes others to the task of restoration. But he desires each not to come to such a point and reminds them that they are to carry their own burden. In other words, do what is necessary to not be in the place of needing restoration and causing others to be burdened. And so he teaches them how it works. If they sow to the flesh, it will again bring them to corruption and a need for restoration. If they sow to the Spirit, they will be experiencing eternal life. As eternal life is knowing God and Christ...John 17:3, they are in fellowship and do not need to be restored.

Just as an aside, choosing verses and taking them out of context always leads to doctrinal error. We are all guilty of it at times, more concerned to prove our position than to be faithful to scripture.
I'll get to the other scriptures shortly. I'm genuinely excited about John 15 because as I was looking them over earlier, God shared some things I hadn't previously understood.

 

[Fundaamental]

If you knew the truth in God’s Word how OSAS is false and it wrong on many levels, you would see how the video preaches the truth spot on. Most I have talked with since 2010 online and in person do believe they can sin and still be saved by having a belief alone in Jesus. In Matthew 7:22-23: It should be no surprise that when Jesus tells certain believers to depart from Him it is because of their iniquity. Jesus actually gives them the reason why He is telling them to depart from Him in Matthew 7:23. He says it is iniquity. He drives the point home even more in Matthew 7:26-27. He says everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

What I liked in the video is that it alludes to John 15:2, which is a much neglected verse that even Conditionals generally do not even notice. If you were to pay attention, in John 15:2 Jesus refers to the branch that bears not fruit in how it is “IN ME.” Meaning, the branch was IN the vine, and it DID NOT BEAR FRUIT. So this means that you are not forced against your will (*Cough* Calvinism) to do good fruit. Yes, God ultimately does the good works through us. I am not denying that. The point is that we have to cooperate with the Lord Jesus (God) in doing good. If not, we will be cut off like a branch and thrown into the fire (John 15:6). This fire would be the Lake of Fire.

none of this changes how sick you are

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

none of this changes how sick you are

He's not sick - he just doesn't conform to your beliefs. It's wrong to make false accusations against someone just because you don't like what he's posting.

I think that is what is so distasteful about OSAS - since adherents to this teaching think so lightly about sin, it's nothing to them to make false accusations about someone else. Please don't do that to him.


🍰

 

[Cameron143]

Then John the Baptist would be lying. The teaching that they can bring forth fruits as a reference to good works is the point.
The idea is tied to John 15:6 in that if we do not do good works, we are cast into the fire (i.e., the Lake of Fire).
This point is repeated in the Parable of the Talents. The unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Doesn’t sound like a good place. But there are more things like this in Scripture. It doesn’t stop. But as Hitler cried in the OSAS video, “Works Salvationists!” Even though that is not exactly what we believe precisely. Works is only a part of our Sanctification, and it is only AFTER we are saved first by God’s grace through faith (Which is a process of salvation without works).

Before you stick to that story, can you tell me what the works are that are meet to repentance and the source it brought to them to be able to do? Remember when you reminded me of a verse in John 15...perhaps consider John 15:5?

 

[Fundaamental]

He's blind to it, but he is describing himself in his video. Religion. He has forgotten the MILK/ ELEMENTARY of Christ. And every moment he believes that he can lose salvation he is trampling Christs blood and putting Him to open shame. Crucifying Him over and over. The believing Jews were doing it with going back to animal sacrifice, religion does it today by "working" for God so as to gain salvation.

It is near impossible for us to come out of religion. At least sin usually hits a brick wall and people seek Him. Religion on the other hand......

Heb 6:4~~For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have [e]fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

And even still.....the grace of God:

Heb 6~~7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

1 Cor 3~~12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test [e]the quality of each one’s work. 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.

i did see that the meaning of love was definitely missing, but you can't discuss with this reasoning, there's no point, your arguing with the anti Christ.

Theese people never truly believed in eternal security to begin with, they just found a doctrine called once saved always saved and the anti Christ lead them to challenge it.

What they need to question is themselves, and ask do they believe in eternal security, or do they believe it's better to challenge a sentence called Osas.

 

[Kroogz]

Grace believer's witness of salvation to unbelievers~~John 3:16; Acts 16:31.

God sent His Son.Christ died for your sins. He was raised from the dead for you. Recognize you are a sinner ,in need of salvation and believe/trust on the Lord Jesus Christ and His work for you and you shall be saved.

If the loss of salvation crowd holds the keys to salvation and how we obtain it, Why don't they lay out the detailed specifics on how to be saved? Wouldn't that be the true mission?

 

[Fundaamental]

Grace believer's witness of salvation to unbelievers~~John 3:16; Acts 16:31.

God sent His Son.Christ died for your sins. He was raised from the dead for you. Recognize you are a sinner ,in need of salvation and believe/trust on the Lord Jesus Christ and His work for you and you shall be saved.

If the loss of salvation crowd holds the keys to salvation and how we obtain it, Why don't they lay out the detailed specifics on how to be saved? Wouldn't that be the true mission?

In an ideal world maybe more people would be involved in the great commission, I could say a lot more at this point, but at this stage I would rather keep those gemstones to myself,

You could show the anti once saved always saved a hundred gemstones which the lord has given me many to show, but people who never truly believed in the first place will want to doubt there salvation being assured no matter what you say, until they truly believe for themselves

I have just searched my heart as I always do looking for the words to say.

I have just waited for an answer on the lord, and had some quiet time with the lord, this is what comes back to me.

 

[Cameron143]

So how would you understand Galatians 6:8-9?
How about 1 Timothy 5:8?
What about John 15:6?
Please give me a word for word commentary on these verses.

Side Note:

Please keep in mind that Jesus says in John 15:2 that every branch IN ME that bears not fruit.
IN ME. They are IN THE VINE and they are not bearing fruit.
So how would you explain this one away?

1 Timothy 5:8 is merely a statement of fact. Anyone who doesn't provide for his family is worse than an infidel. Are infidels genuine believers? Are people worse than unbelievers believers?
If you are going to use this verse as a proof text against eternal security, you are going to have to stipulate that someone worse than an infidel is saved. Is this your premise?

 

[Fundaamental]

He's not sick - he just doesn't conform to your beliefs. It's wrong to make false accusations against someone just because you don't like what he's posting.

I think that is what is so distasteful about OSAS - since adherents to this teaching think so lightly about sin, it's nothing to them to make false accusations about someone else. Please don't do that to him.


🍰

I don't like people who believe in eternal security being associated to Hitler, and neither should you, as for my beliefs I haven't even started to discuss them yet ☕

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

I have noticed just the opposite of that.
John 10:28. A very clear and concise worded verse. Post that verse, and the loss of salvation believer won't touch it with a 10 meter cattle prod. They skip it and say, "well you have to look at this verse to see......." And never touch it.

John 10:27. I hear Him. I follow Him. He knows me. I am one of His sheep.

John 10:28. He gave me eternal life. He promises me I have eternal life and will NEVER perish. No way around that. It's a promise.

Loss of salvation can't deal with this simple truth. Because if they claim to be one of His sheep.......they have to deny "never perish"

John 10:27
”My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”

Please pay closer attention to verse 27. The promise is only if you are the kind of sheep that FOLLOWS Jesus. That’s the condition. It’s not referring to sinning or lazy sheep here. You have to meet the condition of following Jesus. If not, the promise does not apply.

And they know it, so they won't deal with the many verses that clearly say we are eternally secure in Him.

John 6:39-40

I already dealt with this one here.

1 John 5:1

Lets look at the context.

1 John 4:20-21

20 ”If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? ​

21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.” ​

1 John 5:1-4

1 “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ [the Messiah] is born of God: and every one that loveth him [God] that begat [gives new life] loveth him [his brother] also that is begotten of him [God].​

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.​

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.​

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.”​

1 Jhn 4:20 says that if a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar.
1 John 5:1 says that whoever believes Jesus is the Messiah is born of God, and everyone who loves God who gives life love his brother who is also born of God.
1 John 5:2 says that the way we can know how we love the children of God (i.e., your brethren), is when we love God and keep His commandments.

So what happens if a person says they know the Lord, and they do not keep His commandments?

1 John 2:4 says,
”He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

1 John 3:10 says,
”In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”

So obviously loving your brother and keeping God’s commands (doing righteousness) is a part of being of God or being born again.

I have had a lot of experience with OSAS believers since 2010. I have asked all sorts of questions and the one thing we keep coming back to in my discussions with them “when push comes to shove” is that they believe they can “sin and still be saved” on some level by having a belief alone on Jesus Christ. Sin is the breaking of the Law or God’s commands (See: 1 John 3:4). There is no OSAS believer who believes their salvation is in jeopardy if they are in some kind of sin. Some may see it as a guidepost to get back on track to make sure they are truly born again, but they never really think sin will destroy their soul as Jesus warns in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, or as Paul warns in Galatians 5:19-21, Romans 8:13, Galatians 6:8-9, and 1 Timothy 5:8. So OSAS believers are not keeping His commands which is a part tied to one being born again and loving one’s brother.

Besides, just because you have been born again, does not mean you cannot later die again spiritually.
The Parable of the Prodigal Son makes this absolutely clear that a person can go from a saved state, then to a lost state, and then back to a saved state again. This same truth is taught also in James 5:19-20.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

1 Timothy 5:8 is merely a statement of fact. Anyone who doesn't provide for his family is worse than an infidel. Are infidels genuine believers? Are people worse than unbelievers believers?
If you are going to use this verse as a proof text against eternal security, you are going to have to stipulate that someone worse than an infidel is saved. Is this your premise?

Yes, this is my premise because unbelievers are not saved. If one is worse than an unbeliever they are not saved because the bar at being an unbeliever is one being lost. So if you do not provide for your own, you have denied the faith, and are worse than an unbeliever. You cannot deny the faith, and be saved and you cannot be worse than an unbeliever who is not saved. Pretty basic and simple verse to figure out if you ask me. You’re just denying the basic premise of this verse because it does not agree with OSAS (Which is man made). The verse is beautiful one by the Lord our God because He engineered in such a way that you cannot twist it to refer to fake believers (Which is the common excuse used by many in your camp when you run into certain verses that refute OSAS). An unbeliever cannot be worse than another unbeliever in context of this letter because Paul is writing to a believer and not an unbeliever. He is saying that the believer can be worse than an unbeliever by their wrong actions. A fake believer would simply be an unbeliever. The verse only makes sense if it is a believer. No unbeliever can be worse than an unbeliever. That is a contradictory statement. Yes, one unbeliever can be worse than another one, but that is not what it is saying. It is saying anyone who does not provide for his own (talking to believers) is worse than an unbeliever. This proves conditional salvation and not OSAS.