The Security Of The Believer

wattie · Dec 10, 2023

Didn't think I'd see it happen but i'm honestly quite relieved.. watchers2017 is banned!

Not sure what happened there.. since he was mostly spouting what every other non osas proponent says.. guess he went too far into accusation.

Fundaamental · Dec 10, 2023

wattie said:

It's a fair conclusion wattie, no doubt watchers will be back soon, but I do know he's had chance after chance, warning after warning,

This is the only reason I have become tolerant of many members who come on here being far to aggressive abusive dogmatic and confrontational plus personal,

Because im happy with the way in which moderation takes a back seat here but still observes people behaviour, to see if they will change,

I do feel a sense of loss theese days when Osas is brought up, it does feel like those who object this doctrine are far more insulting than those who are for it.

At least with those who are for it there is a promise of hope,

But with those who are against it, theese days when I read the discussion with them or talk to them, it feels like I've stepped into hell.

I wonder if I'm on Christian chat because I feel some of theese people who are against Osas are welcoming me to hell,

It feels like some of the people disagreeing with Osas but not all, are well and truly parroting whispers of satan,

Kroogz · Dec 10, 2023

Fundaamental said:

I am actually surprised how many grace believing, eternal security believing brothers and sisters are on this site.

Heck, one site I am on won't let you discuss eternal security any longer. Which further solidifies the truth of eternal security in my mind. This world does not support truth, it suppresses it.

Take it as a badge of honor if the fangs come out! It means you are probably pretty close to the truth.

mailmandan · Dec 10, 2023

wattie said:

Amen! Hebrews 12:7 (AMP) - You must submit to [correction for the purpose of] discipline; God is dealing with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 Now if you are exempt from correction and without discipline, in which all [of God’s children] share, then you are illegitimate children and not sons [at all].

mailmandan · Dec 10, 2023

John146 said:

Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God (μη λυπειτε το πνευμα το αγιον του θεου). "Cease grieving" or "do not have the habit of grieving." Who of us has not sometimes grieved the Holy Spirit?

In whom (εν ω). Not "in which."

Ye were sealed (εσφραγισθητε). See Ephesians 1:13 for this verb, and Ephesians 1:14 for απολυτρωσεως, the day when final redemption is realized.

Ephesians 4 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Believers are sealed for/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Fundaamental · Dec 10, 2023

Kroogz said:

I have come to realise that perhaps those who associate the argument of works to eternal security either for works, or against the idea are the ones at fault.

The principle of eternal security should only be associated to God's unmerited favour and the underlying love Jesus has for us, and amazing gifts of the holy spirit,

I personally now take the view point for those who are not acting accordingly for far to long, where never saved in the first place.

For those who are saved and continue to unknowingly break God's rules he has layed out for us, there is a chance there still saved,

For those who are saved and knowingly breaks the rules, well there is punishment,

Depending upon the severity of the offense, it wouldn't be my place to pass judgment for what ever punishment they are worthy off,

For the sole principle, punishment is something when our brothers are locked up for in prison we are told to pray for them 🙂

Everlasting-Grace · Dec 10, 2023

Fundaamental said:

I am not suprised really.

All we have to do is read the discussion of Jesus and the pharisees, and we see the same anger applied

when they were told all their hard work. All then trying the best they can. Their history, Your ancestry, Your traditions will not get you one second in heaven.

You tend to get angry

I would say that he did something, He is not even the worse. This actually surprises me also.

Everlasting-Grace · Dec 10, 2023

Kroogz said:

Alot of sites do not want it because of the hate and arguments it causes..

If you look, you will see most of the osas debates are not even about eternal security. It is a calvin vs arminian war.

which causes the threads to go even further out of synch Because when your arguing with an OSAS proponent. You argue with a calvinist view in mind, and you end up not understanding what the OSAS person is saying and this turns to false understainding and bearing false witness. Or if your NOSAS, Your have a calvinist arguing against the arminian view and the same thing happening.

Everlasting-Grace · Dec 10, 2023

I just went back and read the last few pages. Thats exactly what it was, A calvinist issue.

I remember growing up in a GARBC baptist church. Loved the church, then the pastor retired and we ended up leaving the GARBC and became independent. I remember pastors and teachers telling us how the baptist church was the only true church. And would push on us why these other denominations are in error. The church became very legalistic, Pastors did nto last long, we even had a health and wealth pastor at one time. The church went to an average of 500 - 600 in attendance to where we were lucky if we could hit 100 (except on Christmas and Easter) It Got so bad we had to change our name from Hope baptist to Bethesda baptist after the pastor (who had a wife and 8 kids) and a deacons wife left their spouses and Got together.

The main point is why do churches teach about other churches? I think it is a ploy from satan. If I can teach you to never believe anything that church says because they are evil. i can teach you to ignore the truth if you are in error.

The Bible does not teach “perseverance of the saints” To me, that is just a ploy to try to fight a doctrine that says we must persevere till the end if we want to get to heaven, (an arminian argument)

The bible teaches when a persons comes to christ and receives his grace gift. He will never die, Never hunger never thirst, He has eternal life, He has passed from death to life, he has passed from judgment to life, He has been given every spiritual blessing under heaven, He has the seal of the spirit, He is Gods child, God will never leave more forsake him, he will never let go of him, not even satan can snatch us from his hands. And it is all based on the cross.

If we take the denominational fights out of it and just read the word. It would be easy to understand. Thats what I do not miss about the denominational church (not that they all are bad. I started and Got saved in a great baptist church and when I was in the military, I attended some great baptist churches around my country) is that we do not teach to fight against denominational teachings. We just teach the word. The word speaks for itself.

Evmur · Dec 10, 2023

Bible_Highlighter said:

Jesus was preaching to folks who were not saved, they were Jewish brothers but not the brethren of the Lord some did go on to be saved.

We are not those who resist the wholesome words of God's grace [you do resist them] the words of our Lord are quite clear "I am come not to do Mine own will but the will of Father, His will is that I should lose nothing of all He has given Me but that I should raise it up at the last day"

You resist the words of Jesus, you say He will lose what the Father has given Him.

John baptised with water, Jesus baptises with the Holy Ghost and fire ... all who are baptised into Jesus have eternal life.

Jude was specifically speaking about false brethren who came in among the brethren preaching damnable heresy.

... to teach that water baptism is necessary to salvation is false doctrine.

Evmur · Dec 10, 2023

Bible_Highlighter said:

Your basic problem is you don't know what "saved" is. You do not understand that nature of salvation or the new birth. This does put a question mark over YOU.

It will not do you any harm to check your self "is Christ really in me?" if He is then you have everlasting life if He is not then you do not have everlasting life. You can be religious but not saved. Religious folks are tossed about by every wind of doctrine. One day they are up the next day they are down, depending on their day to day experiences.

We are steadfast and sure, we know we have everlasting life.

Evmur · Dec 10, 2023

Bible_Highlighter said:

Lets read the verse.

Romans 3:8
”And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,)
Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.”

Notice that they slanderously say this against Paul and it does not mean it is true. This is obviously the Jews saying this who are trying to get Christians to be circumcised and to be saved and to follow the Old Law (i.e., the 613 laws of Moses). If you were to read Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24 it tells you about this.

Acts 15:1
”And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

Acts 15:5
”But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

Acts 15:24
”Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

So Gentile Christians were being told by the apostles that they do not have to keep the Laws of Moses, and neither are they to be circumcised to be saved. It was heresy to keep circumcision and the Laws of Moses to be saved. We see hints of this heresy in Paul’s writings.

Galatians 5:2
”Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. “

Now, lets get back to Romans.

Romans 2:25-29 says,

24 ”For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

Romans 3:1 says,
”What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So it’s not that Christians are not under any Law in regards to salvation.

Even 1 John 3:23 says,
“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”

Do you believe you have to keep the commandment or Law to believe on the name of Jesus Christ for salvation? I sure do.
So you are saved by keeping a particular Law. Law can save you, but it depends on which Law you are referring to. Obviously Paul was condemning in going back to the Old Law and this is what he was referring to about those Jews who were slandering them in doing evil. Paul was not about the idea that we could sin and be saved.

Romans 6:1-2
”What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? “

Now, let’s read 1 Timothy 5:8.

1 Timothy 5:8
”But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”

Now, pay attention to what this verse says. Slowly read it and understand what it is saying here.
Paul is saying that if any (any believer) provides not for their own (even their own house), they have denied the faith and they are worse than an infidel. An infidel is an unbeliever. Just check other translations, and it says this. So if you do not provide for your own, you can be worse than unbeliever. Meaning, this verse cannot be talking about fake believers because only a believer can be worse than an unbeliever. Unbelievers cannot be worse than other unbelievers. It would make no sense. So Paul here is teaching conditional salvation and he is saying that if you commit the sin of not providing for your own later on after you were saved, you can then be worse than an unbeliever. Unbelievers are not saved. So one will lose their salvation if they do not provide for their own. That is what this verse is plainly teaching here.

You are right, they said it about Paul but it was slander.

Folks say it about us and it is slander.

They don't say it about you ... I think that's a problem.
We believe with Paul that we are dead to sin and can't therefore continue to live therein.

Anybody who claims to be a Christian yet lives openly in sin is to be put out of the church. They are in the Lord's hand.

Fundaamental · Dec 10, 2023

Everlasting-Grace said:

It hasn't come as a suprise to me he was walking a tight rope for a while now,

When he rejoins hopefully he will learn to be more tolerant, it is a shame as I was starting to see improvement in his attitude,

But stil personaly I think everyone should take the stance that works should not be argued against, they should only be seen as a good thing and something which should not be used to argue over salvation with.

For me the moment you start arguing over works, the argument is then based on a false premise,

Tho people will defends good works like you say, still never the less we shouldn't engage in a false premise

Evmur · Dec 10, 2023

The_Watchers_2017 said:

if it came from the bible then we's bible believers innit.

Everlasting-Grace · Dec 10, 2023

Fundaamental said:

It hasn't come as a suprise to me he was walking a tight rope for a while now,

When he rejoins hopefully he will learn to be more tolerant, it is a shame as I was starting to see improvement in his attitude,

But stil personaly I think everyone should take the stance that works should not be argued against, they should only be seen as a good thing and something which should not be used to argue over salvation with.

For me the moment you start arguing over works, the argument is then based on a false premise,

Tho people will defends good works like you say, still never the less we shouldn't engage in a false premise

To me you can not have an OSAS vs NOSAS without talking about works.

It is what seperates the two.

JimmyTheLock · Dec 10, 2023

wattie said:

What part of being cut off from the vine do you not understand?

Jesus said He was the vine, the Father is the husbandman (it's HIS Vine!), and we are the branches.

He's saying when a branch does not bare fruit... it is cut off. That means separated from the vine for those of you in Rio Linda!

The way to get back on the vine is to confess and forsake your sin and become in right standing with the Lord once again. One cannot walk after the flesh and be on the vine at the same time as walking after the flesh is to be not abiding in Christ refusing to be led by the Holy Spirit based on God's Word.

Kroogz said:

Which is why satan has so many false teachers teaching salvation differently then what God's Word teaches... causing people to be led by doctrines of demons instead of by the Holy Spirit

Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13),
and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth (John 17:17)

Romans 8:14
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Kroogz said:

That's funny... there's so many warnings in God's Word that indicate... salvation can actually be lost.

This is WHY the OSAS peoples can only recognize certain passages and must deny, ignore, or otherwise explain away the rest of God's Word is because they cannot accept the whole counsel of God and keep their OSAS position.

The fact of the matter is, Jesus and His Apostles did not actually teach eternal security as we see warning written to believers that clearly tell us loss of salvation is possible and that salvation is conditional to use abiding in Christ.

This is why OSAS peoples don't like what Jesus teaches in John 15 and they have top dancer around this simple truth as to try to explain away what Jesus said.

Nehemiah6 said:

It actually got started with the false teacher augustine... John Calvin and Martin Luther were both big fans of augustine's false doctrine rather then studying the Bible, they brought the false teachings of augustine in to the "reformation" which was no reformation at all as they FAILED to return to biblical doctrine. Sad, very sad indeed for these "reformers"

Fundaamental · Dec 10, 2023

Everlasting-Grace said:

This is the convincing argument of our enemy that you raise here,

There's always a convincing argument from our enemy that appeals to heart of the believer that feels it has a worthwhile point.

Unless you live by a set a morals and experience, it's so easy to have the mindset not to fathom out what is the convincing argument that leads us into argument.

And what is the argument ?

Mostly the people who argue for Osas, argue you can not obtain salvation for yourself,

Ok this is true, but also this is obvious, again if we continue to argue about that, where arguing in a false premise.

Then we go to the number one argument of people who say works is important to salvation.

Yes this is true but if we continue to argu about works being proof of salvation, again we are inside a false premise, because the only proof is between the believer and the lord 🙂.

Just some we advice for the future

Always seek out what is the convincing argument and then avoid it 🙂 it generally comes from satan.

Fundaamental · Dec 10, 2023

JimmyTheLock said:

What part of being cut off from the vine do you not understand? View attachment 258746

Jesus said He was the vine, the Father is the husbandman (it's HIS Vine!), and we are the branches.

He's saying when a branch does not bare fruit... it is cut off. That means separated from the vine for those of you in Rio Linda!

The way to get back on the vine is to confess and forsake your sin and become in right standing with the Lord once again. One cannot walk after the flesh and be on the vine at the same time as walking after the flesh is to be not abiding in Christ refusing to be led by the Holy Spirit based on God's Word.

Which is why satan has so many false teachers teaching salvation differently then what God's Word teaches... causing people to be led by doctrines of demons instead of by the Holy Spirit

Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13),
and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth (John 17:17)

Romans 8:14
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

That's funny... there's so many warnings in God's Word that indicate... salvation can actually be lost.

This is WHY the OSAS peoples can only recognize certain passages and must deny, ignore, or otherwise explain away the rest of God's Word is because they cannot accept the whole counsel of God and keep their OSAS position.

The fact of the matter is, Jesus and His Apostles did not actually teach eternal security as we see warning written to believers that clearly tell us loss of salvation is possible and that salvation is conditional to use abiding in Christ.

This is why OSAS peoples don't like what Jesus teaches in John 15 and they have top dancer around this simple truth as to try to explain away what Jesus said.

It actually got started with the false teacher augustine... John Calvin and Martin Luther were both big fans of augustine's false doctrine rather then studying the Bible, they brought the false teachings of augustine in to the "reformation" which was no reformation at all as they FAILED to return to biblical doctrine. Sad, very sad indeed for these "reformers"

maybe you fail recognise When Jesus hints at not being connected to the true vine he is given warning.

Fundaamental · Dec 10, 2023

Just a wee bit of advice but satan operates on false premises and loves to get the believer stuck in one , once he has you there, it so easy for him to arouse anger

Bible_Highlighter · Dec 10, 2023

Evmur said:

While the Jewish nation was not perfect, and they slipped up many times, the Jewish nation were God’s chosen people that were in acceptance of God‘s existence, and they were the guardians of the Holy Scriptures.
Jesus is preaching from a standpoint of the true faith He wanted them to have as believers and not as unbelievers.
Only Gentiles were dogs and unbelievers. Jesus did not come first for the Gentiles yet and the Gentiles were unbelievers.
But God knew that salvation would later go out to the Gentiles and therefore, our Lord’s teachings before the cross would be applicable to the Gentiles, as well. Meaning, Jesus desires all men to come to have faith in Him for salvation, and to follow the Father’s teachings.

Also think about the words of Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount. An unbeliever or unregnerate Jew can forgive everyone on the planet, but that would not save them. They need to first accept Jesus Christ or their Messiah or Savior first in order to be Iniitally Saved. Yet, Jesus said if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). So Jesus is talking to those who already have faith in Him. He is not talking to unbelievers or unregenerate Jews because it would do them no good to apply the principles He was teaching at the Sermon on the Mount (or other times) if they rejected Him as their Messiah. In other words, God’s teachings relayed by Jesus go hand in hand with accepting Him as the Messiah.

To put it to you another way, you do not believe the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Luke 10:25-28, etcetera. Why? Because you and most of Christianity teach against His words in His warning against how sin can condemn or destroy our souls in the afterlife. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God and to love your neighbor was a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). In Luke 10: Jesus did not correct the lawyer and say, “Wrong lawyer! Just believe on the finished work of the cross!” Yes, we need to first be saved by God’s grace through faith, which is a process of salvation that is without works. That is how salvation starts. But salvation is continued Sanctification (Holy living by the Spirit) in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Also see Romans 8:13, Galatians 6:8-9.

You said:

In 1 Timothy 6:3-4 it also talks about the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness.
Your view allows for a person to live in ungodliness and yet still be saved, and therefore it runs contrary to the true faith given to us in the Bible. Jesus said that even looking upon a woman in lust will cause us to be cast bodily into hellfire (Matthew 5:28-30). This applies to me, you and everyone on the planet. But like I said, you don’t believe these words by our Lord Jesus.

You said:

John 6:37-40 says,

37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

First, what does Jesus mean by,

“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”

Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,

"I WILL lose nothing."

However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,

"I SHOULD lose nothing."

John 6:39 (KJV) says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40

"MAY have everlasting life".

John 6:40

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 says:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.

And OSAS terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?

You said:

I take this statement by John the Baptist to mean that it was primarily a reference to the event at Pentecost.
However, it can also be applied to how all believers are baptized spiritually when they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, and the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Baptism in fire can also be applied to a testing of one’s faith.

You said:

Chapter and verse please.

You said:

Which was the belief that they could sin and still be saved. They turned God’s grace into lasciviousness or a license to sin.
Read again Jude 1:4. Also see that the MANY believers who thought they were saved were cast out because they also worked sin or iniquity in Matthew 7:22-23, and Matthew 13:41-42.

You said:

On this point, we agree. 1 Corinthians 1:17, and 1 Peter 3:21 tell us that baptism is not a salvation issue.

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