Does God Know From All Eternity Who Will Die Having Rejected Sound Doctrine?

[stilllearning]

I never said MiShPaT means judgment in this text. I said it means uncountable.

"Ps. 147:5 says his understanding (TaBUN) is uncountable (MiShPaT), not that his knowledge (Da'aT) is infinite (MiShPaR)."after uncountable after uncountable.

Sorry, I typoed MiShPaT for MiShPaR after uncountable. It should have been (MiShPaR, which means uncountable/infinite and comes from SePher, to count). But I was actually intending to focus on the translation of TaBUN as knowledge, and pointing out that actually means understanding. It was a pedantic aside on my part, which I would have been better to ignore.

So, the text is saying God's understanding is uncountable/infinite; not God's knowledge is uncountable/infinite. My main focus for that post was actually on the second text cited, to clarify it's meaning and how as an open theist I understand that text as compatible with the open theistic view of God.

Ok was a mistake. I am able to follow you now and get an idea what you are opining.

See Proverbs 24:3-4. Wisdom = ChoKhMaH, Understanding = TaBUN; knowledge = Da'aT

Just making sure we have a general or agreed understanding of the three words. If either one of us was driving behind a vehicle and suddenly saw red lights or their brake lights. The knowledge portion would be seeing or recognizing that their brake lights are on and suddenly appeared. Understanding would be after having a knowledge that their brake lights are on, it would be discernment or understanding. It would be the realization that since we see brake lights that they are no longer moving and at our current speed we will collide with them. Wisdom would be the application of our brake so that our speed would reduce and we come to a stop avoiding the collision.

So this would be my simple explanation of the 3 different words and their application. Would you agree or have a different explanation and application?

 

[stilllearning]

Let us take the truth from this verse. How does the Lord know who are his? By his seal, the Holy Spirit. When does one receive the Holy Spirit? Upon believing the gospel.

To say that God already knows this ahead of time makes this verse a lie. Notice the Galatians passages states that “after that ye are known of God.” God does not know you until you believe the gospel and he seals you as one of his.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Known of God, is being used here as a experiential knowing. When Gabriel told Mary she was gonna give birth, she said how I have not known a man. That did not mean she had no knowledge of men at all but she had not experienced a man in such a way that she could become pregnant.

When Christ said depart from me I never knew you. He is speaking in a experienced way or we never had a relationship, we never had a intimate knowing of each other.

In Kings James English or 1600's English. The word "known" came into existence in the 14th century. It means recognize. The word recognize comes from the word cognizance, which also came into existence in the 14th century. Which at that time in the 14th century knight's would carry a shield on that shield would be a symbol or painting that would identify knights to whom they belonged and whom they were fighting for. That symbol of ownership or what side one was on was the cognizance.

So this why our translators of the KJV used the word "known" as it aligns with a experiential knowing. So Paul is calling the Galatians out saying God has had relationship with you, he has accepted you as one who belongs to him. That is why he was so applauded at their willingness and ease to go a different route.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Does God Know From All Eternity Who Will Die Having Rejected Sound Doctrine?

Which theological version of God's "Omnicience" would you like???

Personally, I'd say that he DOES know.. That's an "opinion".

This the internet - nobody ever "Proves" anything here.

 

[stilllearning]

Known of God, is being used here as a experiential knowing. When Gabriel told Mary she was gonna give birth, she said how I have not known a man. That did not mean she had no knowledge of men at all but she had not experienced a man in such a way that she could become pregnant.

When Christ said depart from me I never knew you. He is speaking in a experienced way or we never had a relationship, we never had a intimate knowing of each other.

In Kings James English or 1600's English. The word "known" came into existence in the 14th century. It means recognize. The word recognize comes from the word cognizance, which also came into existence in the 14th century. Which at that time in the 14th century knight's would carry a shield on that shield would be a symbol or painting that would identify knights to whom they belonged and whom they were fighting for. That symbol of ownership or what side one was on was the cognizance.

So this why our translators of the KJV used the word "known" as it aligns with a experiential knowing. So Paul is calling the Galatians out saying God has had relationship with you, he has accepted you as one who belongs to him. That is why he was so applauded at their willingness and ease to go a different route.

Appalled, not applauded........LOL Don't think he was clapping his hands in honor to them........LOL

 

[PaulThomson]

Ok was a mistake. I am able to follow you now and get an idea what you are opining.



Just making sure we have a general or agreed understanding of the three words. If either one of us was driving behind a vehicle and suddenly saw red lights or their brake lights. The knowledge portion would be seeing or recognizing that their brake lights are on and suddenly appeared. Understanding would be after having a knowledge that their brake lights are on, it would be discernment or understanding. It would be the realization that since we see brake lights that they are no longer moving and at our current speed we will collide with them. Wisdom would be the application of our brake so that our speed would reduce and we come to a stop avoiding the collision.

So this would be my simple explanation of the 3 different words and their application. Would you agree or have a different explanation and application?

If I use the illustration Solomon provides in the verses themselves, which is, "Through wisdom a house is builded; by understanding it is erected and by knowledge shall its chambers be filled with all manner of pleasant riches", we could say that wisdom answers the question "Why build a house right now?" Understanding answers the question, "How should it be founded/established so that it fulfils its purpose?" And knowledge answers the question "What are the options for materials and chattels to complete it?"
We could say that wisdom is the project investor; understanding is the architect and builder; and knowledge is the researcher who gathers the information relevant to the project.
Or again, knowledge is data. Understanding is perceiving the implications and meaning of the data. And wisdom is choosing an appropriate course of action that is coherent with the data and its implications.
Or again, gathered information/knowledge (from the past) is being undestood/interpreted and applied (in the present) to achieve an worthwhile/wise goal (in the future).

So, "seeing or recognizing that their brake lights are on and suddenly appeared".would be a part of the pertinent knowledge.needed for understanding and wisdom to operate. Yes.
And understanding would include "the realization that since we see brake lights that they are possibly slowing down and at our current speed we will collide with them. Yes.
And wisdom would be, "choosing to apply our brake so that our speed will reduce and we maintain a safe following distance. and choosing to stop ourselves if the car ahead is actually stopping. so that we avoid damage."

 

[PaulThomson]

non sequitor.

time is a physical property, not a spiritual property.

Where does scripture sat time is a physical quality only? and where does scripture say time was created ?

 

[posthuman]

Where does scripture sat time is a physical quality only? and where does scripture say time was created ?

"in the beginning"

 

[PaulThomson]

"in the beginning"

C'mon, man! God says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." It does not say, "In the beginning of time God created the heavens and the earth." nor "in the beginning God created time when He created the heavens and the earth."
The natural understanding of "In the beginning (B-Re'ShiYT) God created the heavens and the earth" is "In the beginning [of human history], God created the heavens and the earth." After all, that's what the Bible covers. human history and God's involvement in it.

 

[Dino246]

True, I hate labels. I am neither a Calvinist nor Arminian. Blessings to you.

Okay, if you hate labels, why are you so quick to label me?

 

[Dino246]

C'mon, man! God says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." It does not say, "In the beginning of time God created the heavens and the earth." nor "in the beginning God created time when He created the heavens and the earth."
The natural understanding of "In the beginning (B-Re'ShiYT) God created the heavens and the earth" is "In the beginning [of human history], God created the heavens and the earth." After all, that's what the Bible covers. human history and God's involvement in it.

You're making an assumption that is not supported by the text.

The "beginning" is not qualified, and it is not right to impose a qualification on it to support some preconceived interpretation.

 

[BeeBlessed]

Scripture is clear, the spiritual blessings would come through Christ. If you want to get in on those blessings, you better get into Christ through the gospel.

You leave out the important word, "according." This takes the context back to what was previously said. Note, it does not say, he chose us to be in him before the foundation of the world. We were not chosen to be in Christ, but those who are in Christ would receive the blessings and be holy and without blame.

Please don't add to scripture to fit a certain man made theology.

The word “according” does not change the fact that our Father knew us before we were even born. What the word “according” teaches us is that God’s purpose and His plan to carry it out predated our physical being. I haven’t added a single thing to the scripture. I professed my faith in Christ 60 years ago at the age of 12, but I can’t even remember a time before that when I didn’t believe. My mother read to me from the Bible from infancy until I learned to read it myself. My grandmother taught me to write the words on my heart and commit them to memory. I can’t even count all the ways in which I’ve been blessed—spiritually and otherwise—and I have expectation of much more because I believe His promises.

So are you saying that spiritual gifts and blessings are given only after one’s profession of faith? Or are they given even before birth, and then activated when one is born again? Does it matter? All I know is that in Christ I have everything I need to be “holy and without blame before Him” and walk in love. Is that a man-made theology? I think not.

Ephesians 1:3-4. KJV

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

According:

Strong's Concordance
kathos: just as, as
Original Word: καθώς
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: kathos
Phonetic Spelling: (kath-oce')
Definition: according as, just as
Usage: according to the manner in which, in the degree that, just as, as.
HELPS Word-studies
2531 kathṓs (an adverb derived from 2596 /katá, "according to" and 5613/hōs, "as compared to, to the extent of") – properly, "in proportion, to the degree that" (J. Thayer); just as (in direct proportion), corresponding to fully (exactly).

 

[Magenta]

C'mon, man! God says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." It does not say, "In the beginning of time God created the heavens and the earth." nor "in the beginning God created time when He created the heavens and the earth."
The natural understanding of "In the beginning (B-Re'ShiYT) God created the heavens and the earth" is "In the beginning [of human history], God created the heavens and the earth." After all, that's what the Bible covers. human history and God's involvement in it.

In the beginning, there were no humans and no history of humans to record. God being an
eternally self-existent Being, there is no beginning or end. In the beginning signifies the
beginning of creation: the creation of the universe and all that is in it. What need of time
is there without a physical universe? It is taken to mean, then, that time was brought into
existence then also, such as there being nights and days, which is the passage of time.

 

[posthuman]

I have nowhere said anything that corresponds with your charge that "your argument for a God with lack of knowledge has been that He can only observe mankind in the present and make short term predictions about our actions and thoughts by interpreting our synapses as they occur."

your argument has been all along that that God is ignorant of the future:

In order for God to be sovereign over His creation of all things that exist now, He needs to know all that exists now. He does not need to know everything that will exist tomorrow.

because, you say, it's impossible to know the future, even for God:

He knows everything. The future does not exist to be known.

in justifying that, you explained that you view God to be able to predict what we will say or do only a matter of seconds at most beforehand, by observing our brain waves.

He can know immediately before you act what you will do, becasue He sees your neurons firing and your hormones being released and understands what those mean. Hence he knows what we will say immediately before we say it. But the further away in time the action of a freewill being is from the present, the less certain that decision and action are because there is a much more complex net of free will decisions of multiple freewill beings leading up to that future event.

thus you have in fact said exactly as i summarized:
that God is necessarily ignorant of the future and can only make short term predictions through His divine MRI technology and limited neuroscience capabilities.

that's open theism to a T, and in my opinion it's incompatible with scripture.

 

[PaulThomson]

In the beginning, there were no humans and no history of humans to record. God being an
eternally self-existent Being, there is no beginning or end. In the beginning signifies the
beginning of creation: the creation of the universe and all that is in it. What need of time
is there without a physical universe? It is taken to mean, then, that time was brought into
existence then also, such as there being nights and days, which is the passage of time.

Is.45:18. ...God Himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it; he created it not in vain. He formed it to be inhabited...

Hi,Magenta.

Who did God form the earth to be inhabited by?

 

[PaulThomson]

You're making an assumption that is not supported by the text.

The "beginning" is not qualified, and it is not right to impose a qualification on it to support some preconceived interpretation.

So. are you qualifying it by adding time to the list of created things?
Or are you agreeing with me that time is not listed as being created in the beginning, and to add it is to make an assumption not supported by the text?

 

[Dino246]

So. are you qualifying it by adding time to the list of created things?
Or are you agreeing with me that time is not listed as being created in the beginning, and to add it is to make an assumption not supported by the text?

‘Beginning’ is always related to time. It loudly implies time. I hold that what we call ‘space’ and ‘time’ were both initiated by God in verse 1.

 

[stilllearning]

If I use the illustration Solomon provides in the verses themselves, which is, "Through wisdom a house is builded; by understanding it is erected and by knowledge shall its chambers be filled with all manner of pleasant riches", we could say that wisdom answers the question "Why build a house right now?" Understanding answers the question, "How should it be founded/established so that it fulfils its purpose?" And knowledge answers the question "What are the options for materials and chattels to complete it?"
We could say that wisdom is the project investor; understanding is the architect and builder; and knowledge is the researcher who gathers the information relevant to the project.
Or again, knowledge is data. Understanding is perceiving the implications and meaning of the data. And wisdom is choosing an appropriate course of action that is coherent with the data and its implications.
Or again, gathered information/knowledge (from the past) is being undestood/interpreted and applied (in the present) to achieve an worthwhile/wise goal (in the future).

So, "seeing or recognizing that their brake lights are on and suddenly appeared".would be a part of the pertinent knowledge.needed for understanding and wisdom to operate. Yes.
And understanding would include "the realization that since we see brake lights that they are possibly slowing down and at our current speed we will collide with them. Yes.
And wisdom would be, "choosing to apply our brake so that our speed will reduce and we maintain a safe following distance. and choosing to stop ourselves if the car ahead is actually stopping. so that we avoid damage."

Sounds good, now that we have defined commonality of terms. I reckon I am first curious to make sure I have been reading ya right. So your proposal is that while God's understanding is infinite or limitless. That his knowledge is in fact finite or has a limit?

 

[oyster67]

This does not show what you claimed The Book of Revelation clearly shows.

Does. He is Alpha and Omega. He is infinite in every way.

If you want place any kind of limit on the "god" you worship, then you do not worship the True God.

 

[stilllearning]

So. are you qualifying it by adding time to the list of created things?
Or are you agreeing with me that time is not listed as being created in the beginning, and to add it is to make an assumption not supported by the text?

It says the eve and the morn where the first day. Then repeats that to day four when God further gives us the sun and moon and defines that the dividing of eve and day is times and seasons. So we had time from the onset then God gave us a watch to keep it.

We also have when God harkens back to man's creation and the generations thereafter. He did so as a chronical which is nothing less than time as well.

 

[posthuman]

When does someone become His sheep? That's when he begins to know them as His sheep. He does not have me as His sheep until I put my trust in Him. He has no knowledge of me as His sheep until I become His sheep.

If He doesn't know His sheep until after they decide to be His sheep, who is He out calling, seeking and saving?

other people's sheep? is He a thief?

other people's goats He is going to poach and turn into sheep?

were we goats who transformed ourselves into sheep? does He adopt us or do we adopt Him?


what does scripture say, how does scripture describe this?
scripture describes Him knowing His sheep and searching them out, and knowing who are not His sheep. scripture describes His sheep knowing His voice, hearing it and responding - and those who are not His sheep being unable to hear, specifically because they are not His sheep. scripture describes Him finding His lost sheep, laying them. on His shoulder and carrying them home, rejoicing.
scripture does not describe wandering ownerless goats taking it upon themselves to turn themselves into sheep and choose their own Shepherd.