Does God Know From All Eternity Who Will Die Having Rejected Sound Doctrine?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J

John146

Senior Member
#81
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
#81
PaulThomson said:
Do you not realise that an infinite set can be added to without the previous set thereby probed to have been not infinite..

The set of every third natural number is infinite. If I add the numbers 2, 5 and 8 to that set, it is does not make the set of every third natural number less than infinite.

Hence an infinite God can learn new things.

Paul the apostle prayed by the Holy Spirit that we would know the height, breadth, length and depth of God's love.
Although I cannot discover all the depths of God, I can know some of His depths.
I can also know some of the limits of the Almighty. He cannot lie, for instance. You surely do not think Zophar the Naaathite, whose speech God condemned, was being inspired by the Holy Spirit to speak truth in Job. 11 !!!
Click to expand...
Thus, an all knowing God can know the number of hairs on your head because that is a number to be known. An all knowing God can know the thoughts of one's heart because that is knowledge to be known. An all knowing God can know a word in your mind before your speak it, because that is knowledge to be known.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#82
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
#82
posthuman said:
i can prove that the set of real numbers is larger than the set of integers.
that R is uncountable shows this. see 'Cantor's diagonal element'
therefore there are stratifications of infinities.

But you have not proven that an omniscient God lacks knowledge.
Click to expand...
God is perfect in knowledge. If something is knowledge, than God knows it.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#83
Oct 29, 2023
3,467
452
83
#83
posthuman said:
John 10:14​
I Am the Good Shepherd​
and I know My sheep ​
Click to expand...
Your resopnse is evasive and unhelpful.
Do you not agree that grouping those word-pictures in different ways, presents different meanings for the whole?
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#84
Oct 29, 2023
3,467
452
83
#84
posthuman said:
Isaiah 46:9-10​
Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure' ​
​
1 John 3:20​
For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things​
Click to expand...
If I am a chess grand master and a rookie challenges me to a game, would my confidence from the start about the end being i win, prove I knew beforehand every move my opponent and I would make even before the game started? Knowing the end from the begining does not imply exhaustive foreknowledge of the entire process pof getting from the beginning to the end.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#85
Oct 29, 2023
3,467
452
83
#85
posthuman said:
knowing something is not equivalent to being something.
Click to expand...
How would a purely good being, before creating any worlds, conceive of all the possible abominations His creation will perform after creation, if there were no evil in Him ?
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#87
Jul 31, 2013
37,776
13,535
113
#87
PaulThomson said:
Your resopnse is evasive and unhelpful.
Do you not agree that grouping those word-pictures in different ways, presents different meanings for the whole?
Click to expand...
if He knows His sheep,
then the interpretation that means He has sheep that He has no idea about is a false interpretation.

if He has sheep that He has no knowledge of, then He is a liar.

if He has sheep that He has no knowledge of "yet" then He is not Almighty; time is greater than God, so time should be worshipped instead of Him.

thus open theism is debunked.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#88
Jul 31, 2013
37,776
13,535
113
#88
PaulThomson said:
Yes, He is. I agree with that.
Click to expand...
only in the sense that you have a private definition of "omniscient"

not unlike Mormons saying agreeing that Christ is God -- when they say God, they don't mean God. they mean "a god" among zillions of gods, all of whom used to be created mortal beings.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#89
Jul 31, 2013
37,776
13,535
113
#89
PaulThomson said:
How would a purely good being, before creating any worlds, conceive of all the possible abominations His creation will perform after creation, if there were no evil in Him ?
Click to expand...
you are aware of the concept of murderer.
does that make you a murderer?

does God become guilty of sin every time anyone sins and God becomes aware of it?
because He knows of it?

pretty absurd argument you got there, m8.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#90
Oct 29, 2023
3,467
452
83
#90
posthuman said:
i can prove that the set of real numbers is larger than the set of integers.
that R is uncountable shows this. see 'Cantor's diagonal element'
therefore there are stratifications of infinities.

But you have not proven that an omniscient God lacks knowledge.
Click to expand...
I don't believe God lacks knowledge. He knows everything that exists to be known at any moment. That knowledge is complete. Probability functions are not knowable in the present. Hence God not knowing them is not a lack of knowledge and does not detract from his complete knowledge of all that is and can be known at any moment.

You have not proven that the future has real existence and is therefore knowable.

God speaks of things THAT ARE NOT as though THEY ARE He does not speak of things THAT ARE NOT because they actually are. Rom. 4:17
Future things "are not". Some things God promises for the future. The prophecies are i.e. do exist, but their fulfilments are not., i.e. do not exist Yet God speaks of them as though they are, because he is able to bring those prophesied events about by His omnipotence. The future things are not known,:they do not exist to be known. But the prophecies of the future events are known: the prophecies exist to be known.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#91
Oct 29, 2023
3,467
452
83
#91
posthuman said:
only in the sense that you have a private definition of "omniscient"

not unlike Mormons saying agreeing that Christ is God -- when they say God, they don't mean God. they mean "a god" among zillions of gods, all of whom used to be created mortal beings.
Click to expand...
You have a neo-platonic concept of omniscience. The Bible is not a neoplatonic revelation. It is a Hebrew revelation which nowhere speaks of God as having na neo-platonic kind of omniscience. No one has shown scripture declaring God's knowledge is exhaustive of every detail of every world and of every time, including the future. That is a Greek idea, smuggled into the text, not a biblical one, drawn from the text..
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#92
Oct 29, 2023
3,467
452
83
#92
posthuman said:
if He knows His sheep,
then the interpretation that means He has sheep that He has no idea about is a false interpretation.

if He has sheep that He has no knowledge of, then He is a liar.

if He has sheep that He has no knowledge of "yet" then He is not Almighty; time is greater than God, so time should be worshipped instead of Him.

thus open theism is debunked.
Click to expand...
When does someone become His sheep? That's when he begins to know them as His sheep. He does not have me as His sheep until I put my trust in Him. He has no knowledge of me as His sheep until I become His sheep.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#93
Oct 29, 2023
3,467
452
83
#93
posthuman said:
you are aware of the concept of murderer.
does that make you a murderer?

does God become guilty of sin every time anyone sins and God becomes aware of it?
because He knows of it?

pretty absurd argument you got there, m8.
Click to expand...
If I imagined the idea of murder before anything even capable of murder existed, where did that idea come from if not my own heart?
If I learn of murder because I hear of or see murder happening, where did that idea come from. Not my own heart.

I don't see any merit to you rebuttal here.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#94
Oct 29, 2023
3,467
452
83
#94
posthuman said:
only in the sense that you have a private definition of "omniscient"

not unlike Mormons saying agreeing that Christ is God -- when they say God, they don't mean God. they mean "a god" among zillions of gods, all of whom used to be created mortal beings.
Click to expand...
Your definition of omniscient seems private. Where is your definition of omniscience to be found in scripture?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#96
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
#96
posthuman said:
if He knows His sheep,
then the interpretation that means He has sheep that He has no idea about is a false interpretation.

if He has sheep that He has no knowledge of, then He is a liar.

if He has sheep that He has no knowledge of "yet" then He is not Almighty; time is greater than God, so time should be worshipped instead of Him.

thus open theism is debunked.
Click to expand...
According to this passage, when did God know Abraham feared God? How did God know?

Genesis 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God left the decision up to Abraham. As soon as Abraham made the decision and started to act upon it, the knowledge became known that Abraham feared God.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#98
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#98
Does God Know From All Eternity Who Will Die Having Rejected Sound Doctrine?
Click to expand...
SHORT ANSWER: ABSOLUTELY.

This should not even be a question. God knows all things because He is God.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#99
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#99
PaulThomson said:
No. He does not know from all eternity the individuals who will die having rejected all or some sound doctrine. Nowhere in scripture is this idea claimed.
Click to expand...
Paul Thomson is turning out to be a naysayer.

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (2 Tim 2:19)

If God know them that are His, He also knows them that are not His. Period.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#100
Jul 3, 2015
59,890
29,275
113
#100
PaulThomson said:
When does someone become His sheep? That's when he begins to know them as His sheep. He does not have
me as His sheep until I put my trust in Him. He has no knowledge of me as His sheep until I become His sheep.
Click to expand...
John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well,
and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.