Does God Know From All Eternity Who Will Die Having Rejected Sound Doctrine?
- Thread starter ByTheGraceOfGod
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Oh. My apologies. My mistake. I substituted infinity for eternity in the text you cited. I should have said,
"
What is the Hebrew word translated here as "eternity", and what did it mean for the Jews before a platonist-influenced translator chose to represent it by "eternity"?
'aLaM - long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world. It contains the idea of a long time, not of a timeless state.
You had cited,
Ecclesiastes 3:11
"He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, He has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end."
Everlasting to everlasting means beginningless past and endless future. IT IS INFINITY. IT IS NOT ETERNITY.
"
What is the Hebrew word translated here as "eternity", and what did it mean for the Jews before a platonist-influenced translator chose to represent it by "eternity"?
'aLaM - long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world. It contains the idea of a long time, not of a timeless state.
You had cited,
Ecclesiastes 3:11
"He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, He has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end."
Everlasting to everlasting means beginningless past and endless future. IT IS INFINITY. IT IS NOT ETERNITY.
I get that bro. What I am not following is every version of the bible for Psalms147:5 I look up has the Hebrew word micpar and has it mostly translated as infinite. The other versions translate it in a like manner with translations like, limitless, numberless, beyond measure, and such.
The literal translations I looked up translate it as, no narration. So it is as you have said not always easy to do a word for word literal translation. However, so in there lies my confusion and how I am not following because I have not found a translation that says it is the Hebrew word misphat, as you presented. With that word meaning judgement. So have found no translation that says Psalms 147:5 says, his understanding is judgement/misphat.
So not following because unable to find any translation or scholarly writing that has translated it misphat or judgement or justice or other associated words for such a interpretation.
The literal translations I looked up translate it as, no narration. So it is as you have said not always easy to do a word for word literal translation. However, so in there lies my confusion and how I am not following because I have not found a translation that says it is the Hebrew word misphat, as you presented. With that word meaning judgement. So have found no translation that says Psalms 147:5 says, his understanding is judgement/misphat.
So not following because unable to find any translation or scholarly writing that has translated it misphat or judgement or justice or other associated words for such a interpretation.
oyster67 said:
God knows all things from beginning to end. The Book of Revelation makes this very clear. God dwells outside time and is omniscient.
Revelation 1:
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Revelation 1:8
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
God knows all things from beginning to end. The Book of Revelation makes this very clear. God dwells outside time and is omniscient.
Revelation 1:
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Revelation 1:8
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
-
1
- Show all
please excuse a small bit of nerding..
to a mathematician, "uncountable" means that some set can't be mapped in a one-to-one way onto the natural numbers N {1,2,3,4,....}
there are many ways to describe infinity, and many infinitives, but one infinity (arguably the smallest) is the cardinality of N - which is obviously 'countable' in the mathematical sense.
which means yes, any set with cardinality greater than N is infinite, but because N is too, it doesn't make a good definition.
to a mathematician, "uncountable" means that some set can't be mapped in a one-to-one way onto the natural numbers N {1,2,3,4,....}
there are many ways to describe infinity, and many infinitives, but one infinity (arguably the smallest) is the cardinality of N - which is obviously 'countable' in the mathematical sense.
which means yes, any set with cardinality greater than N is infinite, but because N is too, it doesn't make a good definition.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
No. Eternity has a latin root which means without time. Infinite also has a latin root, but means without a finish/end. An eternal God would exist without experiencing time in His usual dimension of existence. He would be timeless.
An infinite God has no limits to the capacity of His attributes and uncountable content with those attributes, but He does exist within time, He is from everlasting to everlasting. Despite an infinity being boundless and uncountable, it can be added to. We can add to the infinite set of even numbers. We can add 2.4,6 and 8, and the new extended set will also be infinite and still able to receive new content. God's knowledge of the past and present is infinite/uncountable, but can be added to as he observes new presents happening, God's intellect is infinite. It has no limit to the amount of knowledge it can contain. But it is being added to daily as the world and free will decisions of creature become known. The idea that God must know all things that will ever be and cannot change by adding knowledge is a philosophical conclusion of the Greek thinkers our culture has followed. But the reasoning by which they get to that conclusion is flawed and unbiblical.
I believe in the infinity of God's attributes, that they cannot be measured or their content counted, just as the set of odd numbers cannot be measured or counted . But I believe the notion of God's eternity is foreign to the Hebrew, Greek and Chaldee received biblical text ut was imported into the Bible by Platonism-infected church theologians, and is readily but incorrectly accepted from them by many of today's platonised christians who also read it into the scriptures.
An infinite God has no limits to the capacity of His attributes and uncountable content with those attributes, but He does exist within time, He is from everlasting to everlasting. Despite an infinity being boundless and uncountable, it can be added to. We can add to the infinite set of even numbers. We can add 2.4,6 and 8, and the new extended set will also be infinite and still able to receive new content. God's knowledge of the past and present is infinite/uncountable, but can be added to as he observes new presents happening, God's intellect is infinite. It has no limit to the amount of knowledge it can contain. But it is being added to daily as the world and free will decisions of creature become known. The idea that God must know all things that will ever be and cannot change by adding knowledge is a philosophical conclusion of the Greek thinkers our culture has followed. But the reasoning by which they get to that conclusion is flawed and unbiblical.
I believe in the infinity of God's attributes, that they cannot be measured or their content counted, just as the set of odd numbers cannot be measured or counted . But I believe the notion of God's eternity is foreign to the Hebrew, Greek and Chaldee received biblical text ut was imported into the Bible by Platonism-infected church theologians, and is readily but incorrectly accepted from them by many of today's platonised christians who also read it into the scriptures.
As I said before, I'm surprised at you for adding to the text.
Let's look at the context more thoroughly... this is Ephesians 1, so we only have two verses of context:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
In verse 1, Paul addresses his letter to "the saints" and "the faithful in Christ Jesus"... people.
In verse 2, Paul simply conveys greetings, so this tells us nothing more about the context.
In verse 3, Paul blesses God and tells us that God has blessed us with heavenly spiritual blessings in Christ. This tells us something about God.
In verse 4, Paul starts a very long sentence (in Greek) that continues through much of the chapter. The context is after this verse, not before it! If you look at each verse in the KJV, you'll see how most are structured as clauses without periods at the end.
So, the words, "spiritual blessings in heavenly places" is not the context for "chosen us in him".
Let's look at the context more thoroughly... this is Ephesians 1, so we only have two verses of context:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
In verse 1, Paul addresses his letter to "the saints" and "the faithful in Christ Jesus"... people.
In verse 2, Paul simply conveys greetings, so this tells us nothing more about the context.
In verse 3, Paul blesses God and tells us that God has blessed us with heavenly spiritual blessings in Christ. This tells us something about God.
In verse 4, Paul starts a very long sentence (in Greek) that continues through much of the chapter. The context is after this verse, not before it! If you look at each verse in the KJV, you'll see how most are structured as clauses without periods at the end.
So, the words, "spiritual blessings in heavenly places" is not the context for "chosen us in him".
I never said MiShPaT means judgment in this text. I said it means uncountable.
"Ps. 147:5 says his understanding (TaBUN) is uncountable (MiShPaT), not that his knowledge (Da'aT) is infinite (MiShPaR)."after uncountable after uncountable.
Sorry, I typoed MiShPaT for MiShPaR after uncountable. It should have been (MiShPaR, which means uncountable/infinite and comes from SePher, to count). But I was actually intending to focus on the translation of TaBUN as knowledge, and pointing out that actually means understanding. It was a pedantic aside on my part, which I would have been better to ignore.
So, the text is saying God's understanding is uncountable/infinite; not God's knowledge is uncountable/infinite. My main focus for that post was actually on the second text cited, to clarify it's meaning and how as an open theist I understand that text as compatible with the open theistic view of God.
"Ps. 147:5 says his understanding (TaBUN) is uncountable (MiShPaT), not that his knowledge (Da'aT) is infinite (MiShPaR)."after uncountable after uncountable.
Sorry, I typoed MiShPaT for MiShPaR after uncountable. It should have been (MiShPaR, which means uncountable/infinite and comes from SePher, to count). But I was actually intending to focus on the translation of TaBUN as knowledge, and pointing out that actually means understanding. It was a pedantic aside on my part, which I would have been better to ignore.
So, the text is saying God's understanding is uncountable/infinite; not God's knowledge is uncountable/infinite. My main focus for that post was actually on the second text cited, to clarify it's meaning and how as an open theist I understand that text as compatible with the open theistic view of God.
Because it's inaccurate and inappropriate theologically to eliminate the distinction. It would make all discussions recorded before the equalizing of eternal and infinite but concerning God's relationship to time incomprehensible in the present. day If the exhaustive foreknowledge lobby wants to commandeer eternal to equal infinite, then they need to start using some other distinct word to represent their claim of God's timeless eternality. Maybe atemporal? what word would you suggest to replace eternal and eternity to signifying a timeless existence. And they will need to keep pointing out when citing writing that predate them that in those days theologically eternal meant without time, but now we use it theologically to speak of endless or infinite time.
Infinite is not only about space. It can be time, knowledge, understanding, sets of endless number series...
Infinite is not only about space. It can be time, knowledge, understanding, sets of endless number series...