Does God Know From All Eternity Who Will Die Having Rejected Sound Doctrine?

[Pilgrimshope]

Before receiving the Holy Spirit? Remember, they did not receive the Spirit until Acts.

“And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, and stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭7:37-38, 47-48, 50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:39-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the Holy Ghost was with them it is the spirit of Jesus who was with them he alone determines who’s saved and who isn’t just like Jesus was with them his disciples he’s with us

“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The son was already with them leadin and guiding and comforting teaching them Just like he is now with us by his spirit we’re meant to be his disciples like they were

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus spirit has come to be with us to lead and guide and teach and protect us. The holy spirit is Jesus presence with his disciples even today jesus determines who’s saved from the point he was baptized salvstion became 100 percent jesus alone with no other way ever to be saved they had the lord with them and so do we by his spirit

 

[PaulThomson]

i think you have this backwards.

because God is eternal, everlasting, immortal, time is NOT an attribute of God.
exactly thr opposite is true - just as 'temporal' is the antonym of 'eternal'

time is one of the pillars of creation,and He is Creator, not created time is a measurement of change, and He is unchanging.

If God is unchanging then He is unchangingly angry at Moses (Ex. 4:14) and unchangingly angry with everyone who sins. If God cannot change he will always be angry with you and me. Don't you see that your platonist version of God cannot therefore fit the Biblical revelation. .And if God cannot be unchanging you proposition above is not valid .
There is no biblical reason to presuppose that outside of the creation there is no time. That is a theory proposed by men based on their metaphysical speculations. It is nowhere in scripture..

 

[Cameron143]

If God is unchanging then He is unchangingly angry at Moses (Ex. 4:14) and unchangingly angry with everyone who sins. If God cannot change he will always be angry with you and me. Don't you see that your platonist version of God cannot therefore fit the Biblical revelation. .And if God cannot be unchanging you proposition above is not valid .
There is no biblical reason to presuppose that outside of the creation there is no time. That is a theory proposed by men based on their metaphysical speculations. It is nowhere in scripture..

Explained in post #233.

 

[PaulThomson]

you are quite mistaken.

Ecclesiastes 3:11​

He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, He has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.​

What is the Hebrew word translated here as "infinity" ,and what did it mean for the Jews before a platonist-influenced translator chose to represent it by "infinity"?
'aLaM - long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world. It contains the idea of a long time, not of a timeless state.

 

[Mem]

Is the conversation about change, and the Lord says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the LORD, do not change;..." which is speaking in regard to His character, in that He cannot become corrupted as gold changes in Lamentation 4:1 and Jehoachim changed his prison clotehes in 2 Kings 25:29, how then can we assume this translates the same in regard to His mind?

 

[PaulThomson]

Explained in post #233.

There you said - "God claims He does not change. I just agree with God. As far as whether that's deep or logical, I haven't considered past...is it true?
Is that in the context of His rebuke of the Israelites for changing their minds on the covenants made with their wives in marriage, where God is affirming that He does not change His mind on His covenants, and that is why Jacob has not been annihilated? That cannot be wrested out of its context to be used to say that God does not change at all in any way.

The immutability of God is centered in His character, not His actions. Thus, God doesn't always have to act the same way, merely act always within His nature.

So God can change His actions as long as His character keeps its integrity. Can God change His feelings towards changing people and changing events without His character losing integrity?

 

[Cameron143]

There you said - "God claims He does not change. I just agree with God. As far as whether that's deep or logical, I haven't considered past...is it true?
Is that in the context of His rebuke of the Israelites for changing their minds on the covenants made with their wives in marriage, where God is affirming that He does not change His mind on His covenants, and that is why Jacob has not been annihilated? That cannot be wrested out of its context to be used to say that God does not change at all in any way.

The immutability of God is centered in His character, not His actions. Thus, God doesn't always have to act the same way, merely act always within His nature.

So God can change His actions as long as His character keeps its integrity. Can God change His feelings towards changing people and changing events without His character losing integrity?

Yes. God is just. He can bring judgment. God is merciful. He can act mercifully. Same God acting differently within His nature.

 

[ByTheGraceOfGod]

what would you say to someone who hadn’t ever read the gospel ? If they asked you the question “ what do I need to do to be saved ?”

what would your answer be ? Would it still be “ you need to believe the Christian essentials “

but what if they were asking you “ what are those essentials your talking about ?”

would you then tell them to believe the Christian essentials ? Are there any essentials ? If so what are those essentials your avoiding talking about ?

The people we are referring to on this forum have read the gospel and do know that all Christian essentials from Jesus Christ are absolutely necessary.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The people we are referring to on this forum have read the gospel and do know that all Christian essentials from Jesus Christ are absolutely necessary.

So you would go in the same circle and not answer ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There you said - "God claims He does not change. I just agree with God. As far as whether that's deep or logical, I haven't considered past...is it true?
Is that in the context of His rebuke of the Israelites for changing their minds on the covenants made with their wives in marriage, where God is affirming that He does not change His mind on His covenants, and that is why Jacob has not been annihilated? That cannot be wrested out of its context to be used to say that God does not change at all in any way.

The immutability of God is centered in His character, not His actions. Thus, God doesn't always have to act the same way, merely act always within His nature.

So God can change His actions as long as His character keeps its integrity. Can God change His feelings towards changing people and changing events without His character losing integrity?

Consider the beginning

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

….And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1, 26-28, 31‬ ‭

You can see that God is the creator of all things and everything was very good tbat he created . but he has created mankind to live and rule upon the earth in his image and likeness.

There are two domains in creation heaven and earth

“The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's:

But the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭115:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God created earth and then mankind to live and rule over all he had created upon the earth and also to fellowship with God to have a kinship and relationship with him the creator and his children made in his likeness and image made the rulers of earth in his name but then evil enters mankind through transgression and corrupts the earths rule

Everything was very good and ordered man innocent and knew no evil
“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:25‬ ‭

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

(hes corrupted the mind God created in them )

And when the woman saw that the tree was good ( god said it was death )for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired ( God said it’s certain death don’t eat it ) to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

…..And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4-6, 22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

here is the point of this later on ten generations later after man’s fall and ejection from Eden ……

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

……But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we can see that it is the serpent and mankind that causes the issues in Gods creation and what mankind has done affects God the same way it would a person it hurts thier heart and causes repentance within the heart.

God created a very good creation and mankind followed lie against Gods truth about life and death and ruined creation corrupting it remember it was created like this

“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

man was given the dominion and caused this

“The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. ( the devil and man caused this by rejecting Gods word )

And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.(


And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬


My point is sometimes Gods actions are based on what we do with the gifts he’s given us Gods intent eas that man never eat the fruit and live satans intent was that they are the fruit and surely died and corrupted the earth through sin

God made us in his image he has a heart and mind , emotions and feelings his heart is grieved when mankind destroys itself by killing each other lying and deceiving and cheating and stealing from one another these things hurt the heart of God just as things hurt us . We’re a tiny reflection of God and how he works who he is

God says he is jealous at times , he says he is angered at times it says he loves and hates and takes vengeance and has terrible mighty wrath against sin …..these things drive the lords actions but always he holds to what he has said along the way whether he was angry and declared that sin and all the wicked will be burned as stubble and never remembered again


Ooooor what he says in the gospel that answers all of those things above all he says he is merciful now in Christ he has declared mercy and redemption and salvation now his anger is being held back until the end so we can hear believe and repent and be saved but God has emotions and acts according to them sometimes , this according to his own word I think what your saying makes sense

 

[ByTheGraceOfGod]

So you would go in the same circle and not answer ?

I would discern whether or not these people heard the gospel before and if they would be willing to accept all Christian essentials.

 

[PaulThomson]

Is the conversation about change, and the Lord says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the LORD, do not change;..." which is speaking in regard to His character, in that He cannot become corrupted as gold changes in Lamentation 4:1 and Jehoachim changed his prison clotehes in 2 Kings 25:29, how then can we assume this translates the same in regard to His mind?

Look more closely at the context in Malachi. It is specifically about Jacob changing His mind about his marriage covenants, but God remaining faithful to His covenants with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which God says is why He had not destroyed Jacob, but had destroyed Esau,

 

[Mem]

Look more closely at the context in Malachi. It is specifically about Jacob changing His mind about his marriage covenants, but God remaining faithful to His covenants with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which God says is why He had not destroyed Jacob, but had destroyed Esau,

So how does this relate to God changing His mind concerning Ninevah? Does God not remain faithful to His decree to destroy them? Is it is independent of Nineveh's response? Or does He offer them any room if the choice is to either repent or perish?

 

[PaulThomson]

I asked - So God can change His actions as long as His character keeps its integrity. Can God change His feelings towards changing people and changing events without His character losing integrity?

Yes. God is just. He can bring judgment. God is merciful. He can act mercifully. Same God acting differently within His nature.

So, you reject the claim that God is impassible, that is, He cannot change His feelings/emotions ?

"Impassibility, a corollary to immutability, means God does not experience emotional change in any way, nor does God suffer. To clarify, God does not merely choose to be impassible; he is impassible by nature.".

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/...oes not experience,he is impassible by nature.

 

[Cameron143]

I asked - So God can change His actions as long as His character keeps its integrity. Can God change His feelings towards changing people and changing events without His character losing integrity?



So, you reject the claim that God is impassible, that is, He cannot change His feelings/emotions ?

"Impassibility, a corollary to immutability, means God does not experience emotional change in any way, nor does God suffer. To clarify, God does not merely choose to be impassible; he is impassible by nature.".

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/immutability-impassibility-god/#:~:text=Impassibility, a corollary to immutability, means God does not experience,he is impassible by nature.

I've never heard the term applied to God before. But as God does deal differently with different people and His very nature has Him acting differently in the manifestation of His nature, I don't see how it can be so.

 

[selahsays]

All those "whoms" (ous) are plural relative pronouns, so not "the one whom he foreknew" but those whom he foreknew. And as I say the culture inthe first century was not so radically individualistic as our present culture. So it would be fair to put on communal tribal lenses when reading these verses.

We can reasonably read this verse as God choosing in the past a community of people who would be found in Christ in the future, without the particular individuals being in view as being individually called . The new testament could have used the word ekastos (each one) to indicate that each one of us who are in Christ, God chose before the salvation of the world. But the NT does not state unequivocally state anywhere that any choosing of a bride before foundation was of individuals (ekastos, each one). The Greek language was quite capable of unambiguously stating that before the foundation of the world God chose each one who would be in Christ in Paul's day. But God never says that.

We disagree.

This foreknowledge of God is never used in connection with events. It always refers to persons. It is individual people that God is said to foreknow, not the actions of those people. Consider Jeremiah and Paul as (just) two examples. Before the foundation of the world, God knew both of these men. He had foreknowledge of each of them and knew they could be trusted. For this reason He elected them for a special purpose.

Jeremiah 1:5 (KJV)—Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
___
Acts 9:15-16 (KJV)—But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

 

[John146]

We disagree.

This foreknowledge of God is never used in connection with events. It always refers to persons. It is individual people that God is said to foreknow, not the actions of those people. Consider Jeremiah and Paul as (just) two examples. Before the foundation of the world, God knew both of these men. He had foreknowledge of each of them and knew they could be trusted. For this reason He elected them for a special purpose.

Jeremiah 1:5 (KJV)—Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
___
Acts 9:15-16 (KJV)—But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Neither of these passages state that God knew them before the foundation of the world.

 

[BeeBlessed]

Neither of these passages state that God knew them before the foundation of the world.

The point is that our Father knew each of us—all of us—in eternity past, way before He created this age for us to walk in and see His purpose completed. Those who walk in His will, according to His purpose are elect.

Ephesians 1:3-6 NKJV

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

 

[John146]

The point is that our Father knew each of us—all of us—in eternity past, way before He created this age for us to walk in and see His purpose completed. Those who walk in His will, according to His purpose are elect.

Ephesians 1:3-6 NKJV

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

This passage has always been used, inappropriately and out of context, to prove Calvinism. Let's take a look once again.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

What was chosen before the foundation of the world were the spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. In Christ is the key. The entire chapter are the things found in him, in Christ, in the beloved. The word, "according" takes us back to verse 3 to the context. However, it does not say that he chose us to be in him, as Calvinist somehow think it states.

 

[Dino246]

This passage has always been used, inappropriately and out of context, to prove Calvinism. Let's take a look once again.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

What was chosen before the foundation of the world were the spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. In Christ is the key. The entire chapter are the things found in him, in Christ, in the beloved. The word, "according" takes us back to verse 3 to the context. However, it does not say that he chose us to be in him, as Calvinist somehow think it states.

I'm surprised. Usually you are a stickler for the actual text, and here you are rejecting the text in favour of a preconceived idea. The text states clearly, "he hath chosen us", not "he hath chosen them". You can't simply ignore the object of the choosing because you don't agree with someone's conclusion on the subject as a whole. You're well off the mark here.