Does God Know From All Eternity Who Will Die Having Rejected Sound Doctrine?

[PaulThomson]

I

I, personally, had never heard of "open theism." I still don't understand what it all entails. I am just a bible believer. If the bible says it, then I take it as truth. I try hard not to let man's opinions dictate the word of God.

I developed an understanding of God and the gospel through studying the Word and comparing my understanding with that of others and choosing the meaning of texts that I believed was mosr coherent. I ddi not know I was supposedly some kind of Open Theist or supposedly some variety of kenoticist, until a few zealous internet inquisitors condemned me as a heretic for believing in open theism and kenosis. But I'm juat following the received Hebrew and Greek texts and listening to what they seem to be saying. Others listen to "greater theological minds" and "longstanding traditions" to find out what the Word is supposed to teach.

 

[John146]

Are you a sheep?

Nope, I'm not a sheep. I'm a Gentile believer.

 

[Cameron143]

Nope, I'm not a sheep. I'm a Gentile believer.

Grace and peace.

 

[PaulThomson]

open theism flatly states that God has no knowledge of what you will do next unless you happen to be fulfilling a specific prophecy He is bringing about.

Incorrect. He can know immediately before you act what you will do, becasue He sees your neurons firing and your hormones being released and understands what those mean. Hence he knows what we will say immediately before we say it. But the further away in time the action of a freewill being is from the present, the less certain that decision and action are because there is a much more complex net of free will decisions of multiple freewill beings leading up to that future event.
However, if God predicts a future event, that He wants to happen, He is able to ensure it happens by employing His omnipotence to do so.

 

[PaulThomson]

sound in this sense also means 'not lacking anything'

why do you insist on an ignorant God?

I am not insisting on an ignorant God. You are mischaracterising my position. A being who knows every detail of the past and present and can plan into the future is not ignorant.

 

[PaulThomson]

thus, all He knows about you is the shadow you cast on the wall of time - He is chained to a wall in Plato's cave with bonds made of. minutes, hours, days and years, and cannot fully know anything in its true form.

According to the open theism I presently hold to God knows every detail pf our past and present. That is in no way akin to his knowing only a shadow I am casting on a wall.
According to the open theism I presently hold to, God fully knows everything in its true present form at every moment. You have no understanding of the Open Theist position you are so ready to denounce. Maybe try to understand it before going to war.

 

[PaulThomson]

My last try...does God have hands?

Does an octopus have arms? Yes God has arms, Another being's arms may not look like yours, but they function to achieve the kinds of things our arms achieve. What do we use our arms for ? and can God do those same kinds of things ? If He can, he has arms of some kind.

 

[Cameron143]

Does an octopus have arms? Yes God has arms, Another being's arms may not look like yours, but they function to achieve the kinds of things our arms achieve. What do we use our arms for ? and can God do those same kinds of things ? If He can, he has arms of some kind.

Are you a sheep?

 

[PaulThomson]

He certainly has the ability to do so. However, He will not. Anything that contradicts His divine nature, God will not perform.
What does it mean to be eternal?

Eternal comes from Latin and means wihout time or outside of time. Homeanqever it is a poor translation of the Hebrew 'QeDeM (meaning ancient) and the greek aiOnios (which means aeonous, an aeon being a period of time without a defined end). eternity is a platonist concept from Greek philosophy, smuggled into the Bible not a biblical one. Nowhere do the Hebrew or Greek scriptures say that God is without time, timeless or outside of time.

 

[PaulThomson]

i can add infinity to infinity infinite times and still be less than another infinity - numbers show that, again.
I can add all the numbers divisible by 2, by 3, by 4, by 5, by 6, by 7 and so on and so on together. all of these sets are infinite, there are an infinite number of them, and their sum is still less than the reals.

and God still. knows all these, and knows more than these.

stacking infinity upon infinity infinite times still doesn't reach Him.

all you are demonstrating by this line of argument is that "infinite" is an infinitely inadequate way to describe His knowledge.

It is untrue to say that "i can add infinity to infinity infinite times and still be less than another infinity - numbers show that, again." All the infinities are equally infinite. But different infinities can contain different items. And adding to infinity A to get a different infinity B, does not make infinity A less infinite that infinity B. Hence God can be of countless understanding and add more understanding through observation of his free will endowed creation.

 

[PaulThomson]

Jonah 4:2​

And he prayed to the LORD and said, ​

"O LORD, is not this what I said when I was yet in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish; for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, and relenting from disaster." ​

so, Jonah knew more than God?

No. Jeremiah 18:7-10 says that God has a permanent policy of doing as Jonah understood God would do.

 

[PaulThomson]

Does God have His attributes to an infinite degree?

Does infinity lack the capacity to have more added to it?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

“Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;" Isaiah 46:9-10

"Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;
His understanding is infinite." Psalm 147:5

"Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O Lord, You know it all." Psalm 139:4

Amen he not only knows he foretells it to mankind who will listen to what he’s saying this is spoken from Gods foreknowledge of what will certainly happen this is the outcome being declared to anyone willing to believe

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

age not only knows but he is actually declaring it to mankind what will happen if you do this and what will happen if you do this other thing there are always two possible outcomes one is a blessing and life the other a curse and ends in death .

man’s choice of salvation or damnation is a declaration in a brief summary of the final outcome it’s being spoken because God is the creator of all these things that were and that still are and that will be one day because he’s spoken or forth since creation and it’s always come to pass as he declares it…..he’s creating it he has created both possible outcomes d made us free to choose either

because he the creator knows the certainty of what is coming in the end whatever we choose and we can too of well listen to him telling us and then bidding us to believe him and be saved from the damnation to come on this world

 

[Jimbone]

What type of God doesn't know everything? God is just sitting in heaven surprised "OH NO, another heresy popped up, no WAY i didn't see that one coming!"

I too have this same line of thought when considering this debate. I've asked them "Are you really arguing Gods ignorance?", because to me that seems to be the argument. Why would you even want to follow a God who just "didn't know"?

Isaiah tells us in 46:8-13

8 “Remember this and stand firm,
recall it to mind, you transgressors,
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.

12 “Listen to me, you stubborn of heart,
you who are far from righteousness:
13 I bring near my righteousness; it is not far off,
and my salvation will not delay;
I will put salvation in Zion,
for Israel my glory.”

He is saying He "declares" the END from the beginning. Not He waits to see it. He tells us in plain language over and over again that it's all going down EXACTLY the way He "declared" it would, and for me to buy for one second that God has "blind spots" or "doesn't know" anything is incompatible with the God who gave me new life. I honestly can only think of one reason anyone would even want this to be the case. They have to keep their "choice/freewill" right above God's sovereignty. I am not accusing anyone of being/thinking/believing this, I just mean that from the perspective of me giving it thought myself. I honestly doubt anyone thinks of it like this who makes this case to be clear. I always try to add that I can follow the logic behind this line of reason, but I just no longer agree with it. The idea that we EVER have a "free will" isn't true in my mind anymore. Our will is ALWAYS enslaved to our natures. We are a slave to sin, or a slave to Him.
I of course believe we have a will and that we make choices, I am not trying to pretend that isn't made VERY clear in His word that we are to choose righteously, and now strive to obey God in every way. We are told that as well, but you have to ignore a ton of scripture that very specifically and plainly tells us we are "called", "Chosen", "Predestin", "elected", "drawn to Him", "gifted repentance", and a bunch more along those lines, and it tells us these things in very precise and plain language. How does God's sovereign will work with every persons will to bring about His plan? I don't know, but I do know trying to pretend I have some kind of power over even God with my choice is a delusion, and arguing God's ignorance honestly makes NO sense to me at all either.

 

[Cameron143]

Eternal comes from Latin and means wihout time or outside of time. Homeanqever it is a poor translation of the Hebrew 'QeDeM (meaning ancient) and the greek aiOnios (which means aeonous, an aeon being a period of time without a defined end). eternity is a platonist concept from Greek philosophy, smuggled into the Bible not a biblical one. Nowhere do the Hebrew or Greek scriptures say that God is without time, timeless or outside of time.

What does from everlasting to everlasting mean? And are you a sheep?

 

[Cameron143]

Does infinity lack the capacity to have more added to it?

Yes, by definition.

 

[posthuman]

Yes, God is eternal. Can God choose to limit his knowledge to the time frame he has given man?

yes God can create a rock so big He can't move it, and yes He can also move it

lol

 

[stilllearning]

Ps. 147:5 says his understanding (TaBUN) is uncountable (MiShPaT), not that his knowledge ((Da'aT) is infinite (MiShPaR).

I am not sure I am following what you are saying here.

Psalms 147:5.....his understanding is infinite.
his understanding/tabuwn is infinite/micpar.

mishpat means judgement. So it reads like your saying Psalms 147:5 says, his understanding is judgement? So I am not sure I am following.

 

[posthuman]

Their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

therefore He asks which is harder, to forgive or to heal?
both are miraculous - that omniscient God should forget offense, and that probabilistic distributions of physical matter can be fully known and controlled

 

[John146]

Amen he not only knows he foretells it to mankind who will listen to what he’s saying this is spoken from Gods foreknowledge of what will certainly happen this is the outcome being declared to anyone willing to believe

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

age not only knows but he is actually declaring it to mankind what will happen if you do this and what will happen if you do this other thing there are always two possible outcomes one is a blessing and life the other a curse and ends in death .

man’s choice of salvation or damnation is a declaration in a brief summary of the final outcome it’s being spoken because God is the creator of all these things that were and that still are and that will be one day because he’s spoken or forth since creation and it’s always come to pass as he declares it…..he’s creating it he has created both possible outcomes d made us free to choose either

because he the creator knows the certainty of what is coming in the end whatever we choose and we can too of well listen to him telling us and then bidding us to believe him and be saved from the damnation to come on this world

That's right, if you do this, then you get this. But if you choose that, then that happens to you. Now choose...God knows all possible outcomes.