Predestination; are fates set in some cases?

[PaulThomson]

Psalm 139:16: "Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."
Isaiah 46:10: "I declare the end from the beginning and from long ago what is not yet done. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'"
Acts 2:23: "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."

These verses show that God has foreknowledge of the future, even human actions. However, the Bible also shows that God can be astonished by what happens. For example, in Mark 6:6, Jesus is astonished by the lack of faith of his hometown people. And in Revelation 11:13, the people of the earth are astonished by the great earthquake that destroys Babylon.

Ps. 139:15 "Your eyes ( 'eYNeYK) saw ( R'U ) my unformed substance ( GoLMiY ) and in ( V-'aL ) your book ( SiFReK ) all/evrything (KoLiYM: noun common m. sg. construct ) is being/were being/will be written ( YiKTeNU - imperfect niphal m. pl.) days/daily ( YaMiYM: noun common m. pl); they were pre-determined ( YeTsaRU: perf. pual commom pl. ) and not ( V-Lo' ) one ( 'eKhaD ) in/among them ( B-HeM: 3rd m. pl.)..

Here ,the gender of "them" in "and not one in/among them" is masculine plural, agreeing with "they were predetermined" and "days" and "they were being written", all being masculine plural.

The pual of YaTsaR according to Strong's means to predetermine or preordain. So we could translate this as -

Y"our eyes saw my unformed substance and everything was/is being written daily in your book; not even one of them was/has been predetermined."

So rather than teaching that everything was already written in the book before I was formed, it is saying that everything is being written daily, and not even one day is predetermined. Each day is the gift of a fresh start in which I can decide whether I will serve God and choose life, or reject God and choose death.

Isaiah 46:10: "I declare the end from the beginning and from long ago what is not yet done. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'"
This only affirms that God has an end in mind from the beginning and is able to produce that end. How? Bcause he is omnipotent and can intervene in history when necessary to keep his planned end viable. It says that God will do what he declares, but not that he declares all things. It says that He does all that He pleases, but not that everything that happens is what He pleases and therefore does. So this does not prove God ordains all things.

Acts 2:23: "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."

This says that God intended that Jesus be handed over to the Jewish mob and that the gentiles cooperate with the Jews in executing the Lamb of God. It is a logical fallacy to assume that God's making certain specific prophesied events implies that God makes certain all events.
So this does not prove God ordains all things either.

 

[maxwel]

Before the creation of the universe, God apparently had planned provision for man's misuse of free will and the production of a family of believing sons and daughters, the Son committing Himself to be the atonement for any sins man might commit., and the Father committing to accept whosoever puts their trust in the Son.
1 Pet. 1:19-20 "with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, who was verily foreordained before the foundation of the world..."
Eph 1:4 "according as He has chosen us before the foundation of the world..."

So there was some discussion and planning of two matters (the cross and the church) within the triune Godhead before our changing physical universe was initiated. Conversation requires words to be spoken in a certain order, one AFTER another. A plan requires arranging details in some viable order, this before that, Hence communication and planning takes time, even for the Trinity. That this created world experiences time does not imply that that which is uncreated does not experience time.

.
So, the persons of the trinity required time, and planning, and careful conversations... to do their project planning?

Regarding the eternal members of the trinity, who are spirit, who share in the same nature and essence, and who are in eternal agreement in all things - if we should presume they require a series of divine board meetings to discuss their project planning, we have left all scripture and reason far behind.


This is an absurd view of the trinity.

It shows a complete lack of understanding of nearly every attribute of the divine nature of God.

This is something I might address with a 6-year-old... not an adult who's supposedly read the bible.


.

 

[PaulThomson]

Of course they are. Why would you even ask such a question?

Let's say you have an appointment with someone a week from today. You have jotted it down somewhere to make sure you do not miss it. Now is that knowledge of a future event or not?

It's only "knowledge" if you believe 100% that it will happen. Knowledge is 100% belief.
If the appointment time comes around and your friend does not appear at the meeting, you would not say keep saying "I knew the meeting would happen".
You would say, "I really believed the meeting would happen".
The future is a bundle of probability functions that are not resolved until the future occurs. Any claim to know a future event will happen is actually only a declaration of confidence that the event will happen. It is an expression of faith, not of knowledge. The only person who can know a future event will happen is someone who is omnipotent and has the power to make that event happen. God can predict future events and know that what he predicts will happen, because He is omnipotent and can make the declared event happen. But the omnipotent God does not have to choose to predict all events and make all events happen in a way that fulfils His predictions .

 

[PaulThomson]

.
So, the persons of the trinity required time, and planning, and careful conversations... to do their project planning?

Regarding the eternal members of the trinity, who are spirit, who share in the same nature and essence, and who are in eternal agreement in all things - if we should presume they require a series of divine board meetings to discuss their project planning, we have left all scripture and reason far behind.


This is an absurd view of the trinity.

It shows a complete lack of understanding of nearly every attribute of the divine nature of God.

This is something I might address with a 6-year-old... not an adult who's supposedly read the bible.


.

In John 2 Jesus attended a wedding in Cana. His mother asked Him to fix a problem with the wine running out. He told her that His time to perform miracles as signs to Israel was not yet, but nevertheless a little later did a miracle secretly. You don't think Jesus had a conversation with the Father asking Him what to do. He had been instructed by the Holy Spirit that his time for miracles was coming, but not yet. Either He could do the miracle because He was omnipotent, but believed the Father was not approving of his doing so, or he could not do the miracle because He had given up his omnipotence and needed the Holy Spirit to agree with and empower any miracle. Either way, He does not appear to have been aware that God was going to give Him the go-ahead to turn the water into wine.

So, He does what Adam had not done. Rather than deciding for Himself what to do, He consulted with the father. The Father told Him it would be acceptable for Him to please His mother, but to do so secretly.

There was time and consultation between the Father and the Son between "My hour has not yet come" and "Fill the water pots with water." The Father may instantly understand what the Son says or thinks to Him as a distinct Person, but there is no reason to assume that the Father knows before the Son thinks His thoughts everything the Son is going to say to Him .

 

[tylerbones1313]

let us refrain from misquoting people and you can do whatever until your false teaching catches up with you

Don't presume to make bold assumptions without Scriptural evidence. I am not misquoting anyone these terms are used everywhere in this thread. Show me Biblically where what I'm saying is false teaching.

 

[Nehemiah6]

It's only "knowledge" if you believe 100% that it will happen.

And do you seriously think that God does not know anything 100% --in advance? If so kindly go to the Bible and see what it says about God and Christ.

 

[Niki7]

Don't presume to make bold assumptions without Scriptural evidence. I am not misquoting anyone these terms are used everywhere in this thread. Show me Biblically where what I'm saying is false teaching.

please

Let us refrain from using terms that are nowhere listed in the Bible like:
Triune, Trinity, Oneness, God the Son, three person or Jesus Only. If anyone can think of others please post them to this message.

sound familiar?

 

[PaulThomson]

.
So, the persons of the trinity required time, and planning, and careful conversations... to do their project planning?

Regarding the eternal members of the trinity, who are spirit, who share in the same nature and essence, and who are in eternal agreement in all things - if we should presume they require a series of divine board meetings to discuss their project planning, we have left all scripture and reason far behind.


This is an absurd view of the trinity.

It shows a complete lack of understanding of nearly every attribute of the divine nature of God.

This is something I might address with a 6-year-old... not an adult who's supposedly read the bible.


.

It shows a lack of persuasion toward your theories about the attribites of the divine nature of God . It may be absurd to you, because it clashes with your traditions. But nevertheless it comports with scripture.

 

[Niki7]

It's only "knowledge" if you believe 100% that it will happen. Knowledge is 100% belief.

I can't even

you are trying so hard to sound 'knowledgeable' that ..... well, let's just say it ain't happening

in plain colloquial English: it don't comport. never ever wonder if it's you or the other person. it's you

 

[PaulThomson]

And do you seriously think that God does not know anything 100% --in advance? If so kindly go to the Bible and see what it says about God and Christ.

You obviously did not read my post until you understood it. I said an omnipotent person can know details of the future that they choose to ensure do happen by applying omnipotence in those cases. But there is no biblical justification for supposing that every detail of history God has chosen to ensure.

 

[tylerbones1313]

please

Let us refrain from using terms that are nowhere listed in the Bible like:
Triune, Trinity, Oneness, God the Son, three person or Jesus Only. If anyone can think of others please post them to this message.

sound familiar?

I know what I wrote. Prove by scripture that those terms are found within the pages of God's word.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Let us refrain from using terms that are nowhere listed in the Bible like: Triune, Trinity, Oneness, God the Son, three person or Jesus Only.

While these terms are not found in the Bible, it does not mean that (other than "Oneness" and "Jesus Only") they are not valid. Christians have God's permission to interpret Scripture ("rightly dividing the Word of Truth"), and these terms are interpretations. The Christian world recognizes these interpretative terms.

Is there a triune God head? Absolutely
Is there a Trinity? Absolutely
Is the Son of God also God the Son (and called "God the Word" or simply "God")? Absolutely
Are there three divine persons in the Godhead? Absolutely

The Bible reveals all of this. So we simply accept it without trying to "explain" everything (which is really beyond explanation).

 

[Nehemiah6]

But there is no biblical justification for supposing that every detail of history God has chosen to ensure.

But this is not about "ensuring" anything. Simply knowing it will happen. Not about omnipotence but about omniscience.

 

[tylerbones1313]

While these terms are not found in the Bible, it does not mean that (other than "Oneness" and "Jesus Only") they are not valid. Christians have God's permission to interpret Scripture ("rightly dividing the Word of Truth"), and these terms are interpretations. The Christian world recognizes these interpretative terms.

Is there a triune God head? Absolutely
Is there a Trinity? Absolutely
Is the Son of God also God the Son (and called "God the Word" or simply "God")? Absolutely
Are there three divine persons in the Godhead? Absolutely

The Bible reveals all of this. So we simply accept it without trying to "explain" everything (which is really beyond explanation).

What I'm really trying to say is that using such terms without showing scripture where they are written. Can and will cause confusion in some and even arguing and the Body of Christ doesn't need that, now more than ever.

 

[Niki7]

I know what I wrote. Prove by scripture that those terms are found within the pages of God's word.

What I'm really trying to say is that using such terms without showing scripture where they are written. Can and will cause confusion in some and even arguing and the Body of Christ doesn't need that, now more than ever.

I'm not confused. And you cannot direct people in this forum how you would like them to respond to you. Sorry, but I do not care to engage someone who has rules they have made up because of some quirk of their own.

 

[maxwel]

Before the creation of the universe, God apparently had planned provision for man's misuse of free will and the production of a family of believing sons and daughters, the Son committing Himself to be the atonement for any sins man might commit., and the Father committing to accept whosoever puts their trust in the Son.
1 Pet. 1:19-20 "with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, who was verily foreordained before the foundation of the world..."
Eph 1:4 "according as He has chosen us before the foundation of the world..."

So there was some discussion and planning of two matters (the cross and the church) within the triune Godhead before our changing physical universe was initiated. Conversation requires words to be spoken in a certain order, one AFTER another. A plan requires arranging details in some viable order, this before that, Hence communication and planning takes time, even for the Trinity. That this created world experiences time does not imply that that which is uncreated does not experience time.

Brief List of Problems in just this One Paragraph.


1.) You have to start by presuming God does NOT KNOW ALL THINGS (a prior presupposition) or he would simply KNOW intrinsically, intuitively, and immediately, the best plan to accomplish his purposes.

2.) You then have to presume God is NOT PERFECT, but that he's capable of error - as that is the only REASON to plan everything so formulaicly, and to be so slow and tedious in planning.... because there is possibility of ERROR if you do not.

3. You then have to presume the members of the trinity are NOT IN PERFECT COMMUNION, because a lack of communion and understanding between the members of the Godhead is the ONLY reason for them to have a meeting and discuss everything in detail.

4. You then have to presume the members of the trinity cannot think, or communicate, without using ACTUAL LANGUAGE... because you said that their planning required careful use of words.

5. You then you have to presume God is somehow stuck in, or limited by, corporeal time.

6. You then have to presume that even if God IS stuck in, or limited by, physical corporeal time, that God is ALSO so IMPERFECT and UNKNOWING and INEFFICIENT as to require a "lot of time" to do mental planning... that he's so imperfect and inefficient he couldn't do all his planning in a single moment.


There you go, a minimum of 6 presuppositions, logical and theological problems, just in one paragraph.

I think it's a new CC record.

.
.

 

[Niki7]

You obviously did not read my post until you understood it. I said an omnipotent person can know details of the future that they choose to ensure do happen by applying omnipotence in those cases. But there is no biblical justification for supposing that every detail of history God has chosen to ensure.

how the hee haw do you apply 'omnipotence'? God IS omnipotent. He doesn't apply it

I think you're trying to conceptualize God to your own satisfaction.

please stop (I know you wont' )

 

[John146]

Of course they are. Why would you even ask such a question?

Let's say you have an appointment with someone a week from today. You have jotted it down somewhere to make sure you do not miss it. Now is that knowledge of a future event or not?

It's not knowledge of how things will turn out. And no, it's not knowledge. Maybe I don't go. Maybe the doctor calls to reschedule. Human events and decisions play out in time.

 

[Niki7]

You obviously did not read my post until you understood it. I said an omnipotent person can know details of the future that they choose to ensure do happen by applying omnipotence in those cases. But there is no biblical justification for supposing that every detail of history God has chosen to ensure.

'applied omnipotence'.....sounds more like when I decide what's for supper tonight. I'm in charge, unless my husbands brings home Chinese, so therefore I apply my omnipotence in this situation

 

[John146]

Of course they are. Why would you even ask such a question?

Let's say you have an appointment with someone a week from today. You have jotted it down somewhere to make sure you do not miss it. Now is that knowledge of a future event or not?

Prophecy is future events that the Lord is going to make sure that they turn out the way his word has stated. All future events are not prophecy.