Predestination; are fates set in some cases?
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I said: Do you believe God knows all the future? I ask because a God who knows all the future being astonished at anything that happens is logically contradictory.
You missed the point.
"... a God who knows all the future being astonished at anything that happens is logically contradictory."
Why do you think it is not logically contradictory?
You missed the point.
"... a God who knows all the future being astonished at anything that happens is logically contradictory."
Why do you think it is not logically contradictory?
I said,
What they would do had no real existence, since it had not happened yet. Their future behaviour was at most a bunch of probability functions with no real resolution as yet. God knows all that exists and has existed, including any specific plans He has formulated and any probability functions in their unresolved form, That is all a being needs to know to be truly omniscient,
An omnipotent being can predict specific future events and use omnipotence to bring them about to prove His omnipotent power to fulfil His promises. Predicting specific events and bringing them to pass does not logically prove foreknowledge of all future events.
The Jonah text cited means what it says.
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and [in response] God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
What do you think it means? Why would God repent only after seeing that they turned, if God knew in advance that they would turn? Why would God say He was going to destroy them in three days, if He already knew He was not going to destroy them in three days? Would that theoretical perspective on the nature of God not make Him a liar?
You merely embraced the contradiction in your postion and resort to the logical fallacy of special pleading, declaring it a mystery.
Which scripture/s are you claiming categorically state God knows every detail of the future?
What they would do had no real existence, since it had not happened yet. Their future behaviour was at most a bunch of probability functions with no real resolution as yet. God knows all that exists and has existed, including any specific plans He has formulated and any probability functions in their unresolved form, That is all a being needs to know to be truly omniscient,
An omnipotent being can predict specific future events and use omnipotence to bring them about to prove His omnipotent power to fulfil His promises. Predicting specific events and bringing them to pass does not logically prove foreknowledge of all future events.
The Jonah text cited means what it says.
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and [in response] God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
What do you think it means? Why would God repent only after seeing that they turned, if God knew in advance that they would turn? Why would God say He was going to destroy them in three days, if He already knew He was not going to destroy them in three days? Would that theoretical perspective on the nature of God not make Him a liar?
You merely embraced the contradiction in your postion and resort to the logical fallacy of special pleading, declaring it a mystery.
Which scripture/s are you claiming categorically state God knows every detail of the future?
God's foreknowledge of the future and his astonishment at something that happens are not logically contradictory because God's foreknowledge and astonishment are two different things.
Foreknowledge is the knowledge of something that has not yet happened. Astonishment is a feeling of surprise or amazement.
God has foreknowledge of the future because he is omniscient, meaning that he knows everything. But even though God knows what will happen, he can still be astonished by it. This is because astonishment is not just about knowing something, but about experiencing it.
For example, a parent may have foreknowledge of their child's graduation. They know that their child will graduate on a certain date and time. But when the graduation day actually arrives, the parent may still be astonished by their child's accomplishments. They may be amazed at how much their child has grown and changed.
In the same way, God can have foreknowledge of the future and still be astonished by it. He may be amazed by the beauty of his creation, by the love of his people, or by the power of his redemption.
Here is an analogy:
Imagine that you are watching a movie that you have seen many times before. You know exactly what is going to happen in the movie, but you still enjoy watching it. You may even find yourself laughing or crying at the same scenes over and over again.
This is because even though you know what is going to happen, you are still experiencing the movie in real time. You are still feeling the emotions of the characters and the story.
In the same way, God can have foreknowledge of the future and still be astonished by it. He is still experiencing the world in real time and still feeling the emotions of his creation.
Psalm 139:16: "Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."
Isaiah 46:10: "I declare the end from the beginning and from long ago what is not yet done. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'"
Acts 2:23: "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."
These verses show that God has foreknowledge of the future, even human actions. However, the Bible also shows that God can be astonished by what happens. For example, in Mark 6:6, Jesus is astonished by the lack of faith of his hometown people. And in Revelation 11:13, the people of the earth are astonished by the great earthquake that destroys Babylon.
These verses show that God's foreknowledge does not prevent him from being astonished by what happens in the world.
I hope this helps you to prove your point.
Foreknowledge is the knowledge of something that has not yet happened. Astonishment is a feeling of surprise or amazement.
God has foreknowledge of the future because he is omniscient, meaning that he knows everything. But even though God knows what will happen, he can still be astonished by it. This is because astonishment is not just about knowing something, but about experiencing it.
For example, a parent may have foreknowledge of their child's graduation. They know that their child will graduate on a certain date and time. But when the graduation day actually arrives, the parent may still be astonished by their child's accomplishments. They may be amazed at how much their child has grown and changed.
In the same way, God can have foreknowledge of the future and still be astonished by it. He may be amazed by the beauty of his creation, by the love of his people, or by the power of his redemption.
Here is an analogy:
Imagine that you are watching a movie that you have seen many times before. You know exactly what is going to happen in the movie, but you still enjoy watching it. You may even find yourself laughing or crying at the same scenes over and over again.
This is because even though you know what is going to happen, you are still experiencing the movie in real time. You are still feeling the emotions of the characters and the story.
In the same way, God can have foreknowledge of the future and still be astonished by it. He is still experiencing the world in real time and still feeling the emotions of his creation.
Psalm 139:16: "Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."
Isaiah 46:10: "I declare the end from the beginning and from long ago what is not yet done. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'"
Acts 2:23: "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."
These verses show that God has foreknowledge of the future, even human actions. However, the Bible also shows that God can be astonished by what happens. For example, in Mark 6:6, Jesus is astonished by the lack of faith of his hometown people. And in Revelation 11:13, the people of the earth are astonished by the great earthquake that destroys Babylon.
These verses show that God's foreknowledge does not prevent him from being astonished by what happens in the world.
I hope this helps you to prove your point.
The freewill of man doesn't hinder the sovereignty of God. Both can be and are true concurrently. Acts 2:23...Him, being delivered by the determinate council and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain...God's will performed through the freewill of men. God is grander than we all suspect. It should cause awe in us. But, instead, we reduce God to the limits of our imaginations.
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Isaiah 46:9-10 (KJV): "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure."
Jeremiah 29:11 (KJV): "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end."
Psalm 139:4 (KJV): "For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether."
Proverbs 19:21 (KJV): "There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand."
1 John 3:20 (KJV): "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things."
Jeremiah 29:11 (KJV): "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end."
Psalm 139:4 (KJV): "For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether."
Proverbs 19:21 (KJV): "There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand."
1 John 3:20 (KJV): "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things."
The freewill of man doesn't hinder the sovereignty of God. I totally agree. What I'm saying is a terrorist with the decision to blow up a hospital killing innocent people has a choice freely to choose to do it or not to. God already knows whether he will or not only the terrorist is the one that determines the outcome. Because God would not affect the Free Will of man.
I fully understand what you're saying. But the Egyptians still had the free will to pursue. God didn't affect the free will to do so. In my proposed example absolutely God could intervene to cause the rocket not to fire or even divert the rocket to not even hit the hospital. But the terrorist free will to choose to do so is still in effect. I don't know if I'm portraying my point very well but I'm trying by the grace of God.
God is all knowing, ALL, not reactive to events he doesn't know. If the scriptures indicate he reacted to something, that dies not mean he was caught off guard or surprised; the reaction recoreded is for the record as it was known in advance. It's rediculus to say or infer that there are future things God does not know about in advance of them happening nor how he will react to them.
Let's stick with the Bible and not human reasoning. The bible states that God is perfect in knowledge.
Job 37:16 Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?
Perfect meaning complete, not lacking. But I ask, are things that will happen in the future knowledge? Knowledge until it takes place or the decision is made? Man chooses his own course according to events that play out in life. Things are not set.
Job 37:16 Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?
Perfect meaning complete, not lacking. But I ask, are things that will happen in the future knowledge? Knowledge until it takes place or the decision is made? Man chooses his own course according to events that play out in life. Things are not set.
