Works Complete Faith?

[romans113336]

Thank you, again, for the convo. Although I might not fully understand your position, your zeal for it is notable. God bless and keep you.

I also discovered, through the grace of God with you all, an error God had been trying to get me to see since maybe 2001. I stand by probably everything I've said in this thread, but, the funny thing is even truth can obscure truth if that truth is turned just slightly in the wrong direction. It could cast a shadow.

With a road, it may have a slight rise, and it can hide what's just in front of it--an overemphasis on a truth can obscure a more important truth. That is also a form of deception, how satan can abuse the truth to harm us.

 

[Mem]

I also discovered, through the grace of God with you all, an error God had been trying to get me to see since maybe 2001. I stand by probably everything I've said in this thread, but, the funny thing is even truth can obscure truth if that truth is turned just slightly in the wrong direction. It could cast a shadow.

With a road, it may have a slight rise, and it can hide what's just in front of it--an overemphasis on a truth can obscure a more important truth. That is also a form of deception.

Yes, I do get that. Sometimes we need to just plant the seed, carefully, and gently pat it down, and let someone else water it, if there is a tendency to overwatering, and drowning it out.

As I'm learning, the recipe for the 'perfect' pavlova that I made was a bit too sugary for my taste, and burnt sugar is bitter.

 

[romans113336]

Yes, I do get that. Sometimes we need to just plant the seed, carefully, and gently pat it down, and let someone else water it, if there is a tendency to overwatering, and drowning it out.

Honestly, it's nothing anyone said, it was the grace with you all that worked on me to make me pray more effectively, and that light kept glimmering at me.

I don't know how to integrate that into my life, but I'm pretty sure it's going to change things drastically.

Basically, that I am saved bc of Christ's mercy, and, even though it's clear we must do good, IT MATTERS WHAT WE'RE THINKING WHEN WE'RE WORKING. Like, when I think this way, I really do see Christ smiling at me, which I, on paper, would always affirm, but I had a fear... but God wouldn't save when the Israelites had fearful men on the battle field (Judges 7)... somehow that is linked to boasting (maybe bc it's not trusting God but self)... and God won't share His glory.

Lots more I could say, but I think you get the idea.

I had done so many things for God, and with Him, but He made it clear I was trying to save myself, so I was very confused by that, bc I thought I had to do all those works to save myself. So why would He have been with me in all that? Still not 100% on everything but a corner has been turned.

 

[Mem]

Honestly, it's nothing anyone said, it was the grace with you all that worked on me to make me pray more effectively, and that light kept glimmering at me.

I don't know how to integrate that into my life, but I'm pretty sure it's going to change things drastically.

Basically, that I am saved bc of Christ's mercy, and, even though it's clear we must do good, IT MATTERS WHAT WE'RE THINKING WHEN WE'RE WORKING. Like, when I think this way, I really do see Christ smiling at me, which I, on paper, would always affirm, but I had a fear... but God wouldn't save when the Israelites had fearful me on the battle field... somehow that is linked to boasting (maybe bc it's not trusting God but self)... and God won't share His glory.

Lots more I could say, but I think you get the idea.

I had done so many things for God, and with Him, but He made it clear I was trying to save myself, so I was very confused by that.

Yes, on the one hand I'm a perfectionist, and have to learn to be okay with not being perfect... yet...

 

[romans113336]

Yes, on the one hand I'm a perfectionist, and have to learn to be okay with not being perfect... yet...

It's hard to get it all these truths balanced--impossible without grace actually--especially for me because my grandma grew up in a Convent, infant baptized me Catholic, and my step dad was a Muslim terrorist (forced my family into Islam--I was a Muslim). I had a lot of stuff to work through. Everyone does I guess.

 

[Inquisitor]

It may not make logical sense, but it actually makes perfect Scriptural sense:

1 Corinthians 15
2and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Hebrews 3
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end...
Hebrews 10
36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

So, there is indeed a substantive justification, partaking, and, yet, for those who do not endure, it goes away, and it is as though they had never had it at all--they are blotted out of the Book of Life, God forgets their (faith which was counted as) righteousness (as He warns in Ezekiel).

Logic can be the enemy of Scripture--Scripture provides us with the precedents, then logic can come in.

Your off the track again.

Whether a person loses their salvation if they stop believing in Jesus, is not what this thread is about.

Faith and works!

 

[romans113336]

Your off the track again.

Whether a person loses their salvation if they stop believing in Jesus, is not what this thread is about.

Faith and works!

The point was that there is precedent for a past tense salvation being established, yet there also being an ongoing salvation, and an ultimate salvation--just as Abraham indeed was justified by faith, and yet had an ongoing justification by walking in "footsteps of faith" (Ro 4). God doesn't stop judging, He issues adjudications (condemned / justified) on an ongoing basis (Ro 14:23), and, finally, at the end of this age, believers will experience their final judgment and the final adjudication (condemned or justified) (Ro 2:6-16).

 

[Mem]

It's hard to get it all these truths balanced--impossible without grace actually--especially for me because my grandma grew up in a Convent, infant baptized me Catholic, and my step dad was a Muslim terrorist (forced my family into Islam--I was a Muslim). I had a lot of stuff to work through. Everyone does I guess.

I think it is Psalm 18 that I recently reviewed, the verse about running through a troop and leaping over a wall, and it struck me that, indeed, there will be troops, and walls that I will encounter, and likewise I'll be just as amazed at God for causing me to have run through and leaped over, or pulled out of, or...

 

[romans113336]

I think it is Psalm 18 that I recently reviewed, the verse about running through a troop and leaping over a wall, and it struck me that, indeed, there will be troops, and walls that I will encounter, and likewise I'll be just as amazed at God for causing me to have run through and leaped over, or pulled out of, or...

Yeah, definitely the grace of God with you all has broken chains of darkness off of my life, opened my eyes. The Church is such a blessing!

 

[selahsays]

In the content below, isn't the "faith" referred to not with reference to "the finished work of Christ"--isn't "faith", here, something more akin to a Holy Spirit-granted conviction of what is right or wrong? Doesn't it describe instances of how we "serve in newness of spirit, not in oldness of the letter"? Isn't it a warning that if we choose to ignore those convictions, we will not be "justified" but "condemned" (the two being adjudications the Judge may make about one's life)?

If so, then James and Paul are saying the same thing: as Christians, we will live (be justified by the righteousness of serving in the newness of the Spirit, and, ultimately, "repaid" eternal life Ro 2:6-16) if we walk after the Spirit, but will die (be condemned for unrighteousness, and, ultimately, perish) if we walk after the flesh?


Romans 14
5Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind...
23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

James 2
14What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can [j]that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [k]be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is [l]dead, being by itself.
18But someone [m]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that [n]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless? 21Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and [o]as a result of the works, faith was [p]perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called a friend of God. 24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was Rahab, the prostitute, not justified by works also when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Amen! It’s truly fascinating that a saved person will, perhaps automatically, faithfully do good works. Why? …because the person is saved and long ago, was created in Christ Jesus to do these good works.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

- Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV)

 

[romans113336]

Amen! It’s truly fascinating that a saved person will, perhaps automatically, faithfully do good works. Why? …because the person is saved and long ago, was created in Christ Jesus to do these good works.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

- Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV)

I'm not entirely convinced we're on the same page on the issue. I actually do not hold to it, to be perfectly honest. I'm not saying you're a false believer, or anything like that, we just see things differently on the issue.

 

[selahsays]

I'm not entirely convinced we're on the same page on the issue. I actually do not hold to it, to be perfectly honest. I'm not saying you're a false believer, or anything like that, we just see things differently on the issue.

I don’t understand what it is that we’re not on the same page about. Please explain.

 

[romans113336]

I don’t understand what it is that we’re not on the same page about. Please explain.

I believe you were saying you believed the works happen "automatically"?

 

[romans113336]

I don’t understand what it is that we’re not on the same page about. Please explain.

Talk more later.

 

[selahsays]

I believe you were saying you believed the works happen "automatically"?

Oh. Well, maybe I should’ve let the scripture speak for itself. I messed it up. …but we have been preordained unto good works.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath beforeordained that we should walk in them.

- Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV)

 

[mailmandan]

Here buddy, let me give you a hint as to what is ACTUALLY going on in Hebrews:
Just to let you know, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING regarding "losing your salvation"
anywhere anytime in Hebrews or any other place in Scripture. Despite your (cough cough) "beliefs".

Heb 13:12
Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Heb 13:13
Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Heb 13:14
For here (in Jerusalem!) have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

In Hebrews 3:8-10, we read - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' *Not descriptive of genuine believers. *There is no loss of salvation here. *Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Not stopped believing but did not believe.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have become partakers of Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. What about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

Just like in Hebrews 4:1-2, For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which they heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. *Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

 

[mailmandan]

A "race" against your own sinful self? And we are invest maximum supreme sweat equity to "get closer to where we need to be"?
Thats it? Thats your formula for salvation?

Well, I say that it is a race that NO son of Adam could EVER win.
And Jesus secured the victory for us anyways. There is no race to obtain salvation for us. Ever.
It is a gift bequeathed by the Victor Himself, who can never lose, never fail, and never forsake us.

FYI, the Apostle Paul NEVER, NOT ONCE questioned his salvation. Never.
He was however concerned about being disqualified from the race......for good and faithful servant crowns.

In an Olympic race, all run in the race, but only one receives a gold medal. That does not mean those who do not receive a gold medal are disqualified from the Olympics. So, runners in the Olympics may receive a corruptible crown, but believers/Christians may receive an incorruptible crown and the Bible mentions 5 different crowns. The crown of righteousness, the crown of rejoicing, the crown of glory, the crown of life and the incorruptible crown. (On the head of Jesus were said to be "many crowns" in Revelation 19:12).

In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul is talking about being disqualified for the prize (NIV) and not disqualified for the gift of eternal life. In context, Paul has been discussing preaching the gospel. In verse 18 he says, "What is my reward, then?" In verses 24-27 he illustrates this thought of his reward by the picture of a race run for the prize. Salvation is a gift that we receive by grace through faith, (Ephesians 2:8,9) and not a prize that we race for, win and earn.

Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. That does not sound like a free gift to me. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved.

1 Corinthians 9:24 - "Do you not know that those who run in a race ALL run, but ONLY ONE receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it." In an Olympic race, all runners run but only one receives the gold medal. So, what happens to the runners that receive the silver medal or bronze medal or finish the race with no medal? Are they disqualified from the Olympics or for the prize? Everyone who falls short of winning a gold medal is not disqualified from the Olympics.

Paul does not seem to indicate any insecurity about his position - Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. (2 Timothy 4:8)

 

[romans113336]

Oh. Well, maybe I should’ve let the scripture speak for itself. I messed it up. …but we have been preordained unto good works.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath beforeordained that we should walk in them.

- Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV)

"Should" doesn't mean "certainly will" does it?

 

[romans113336]

In Hebrews 3:8-10, we read - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' *Not descriptive of genuine believers. *There is no loss of salvation here. *Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

1 Co 9:27-1 Co 10 addresses this error. They'd been saved, baptized, and "ate communion", but lived sinfully afterwards, and fell under Gods wrath a d forfeited the Promise made them. Paul says this same set of circumstances (saved, baptized, eating communion) applies to us, and sinning can result in damnation and forfeiting the Promise made us.

Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Not stopped believing but did not believe.

This explanation won't work, because his entire point is people who were in the correct way but leave the correct way.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have become partakers of Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. What about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

It is referring to the fact that God "forgets righteousness", according to Ezekiel. In the NT, that means if you don't continue, your "faith counted as righteousness" is forgotten, you're blotted out of the Book of Life. "They went out to prove they were never of us" because your righteousness is forgotten.

Just like in Hebrews 4:1-2, For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which they heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. *Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

Lol either that or people can fall away from faith--which is a ubiquitous doctrine in Scripture, and is the very thing I've been proving throughout this thread.

 

[romans113336]

In an Olympic race, all run in the race, but only one receives a gold medal. That does not mean those who do not receive a gold medal are disqualified from the Olympics. So, runners in the Olympics may receive a corruptible crown, but believers/Christians may receive an incorruptible crown and the Bible mentions 5 different crowns. The crown of righteousness, the crown of rejoicing, the crown of glory, the crown of life and the incorruptible crown. (On the head of Jesus were said to be "many crowns" in Revelation 19:12).

In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul is talking about being disqualified for the prize (NIV) and not disqualified for the gift of eternal life. In context, Paul has been discussing preaching the gospel. In verse 18 he says, "What is my reward, then?" In verses 24-27 he illustrates this thought of his reward by the picture of a race run for the prize. Salvation is a gift that we receive by grace through faith, (Ephesians 2:8,9) and not a prize that we race for, win and earn.

Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. That does not sound like a free gift to me. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved.

1 Corinthians 9:24 - "Do you not know that those who run in a race ALL run, but ONLY ONE receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it." In an Olympic race, all runners run but only one receives the gold medal. So, what happens to the runners that receive the silver medal or bronze medal or finish the race with no medal? Are they disqualified from the Olympics or for the prize? Everyone who falls short of winning a gold medal is not disqualified from the Olympics.

Paul does not seem to indicate any insecurity about his position - Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. (2 Timothy 4:8)

Oops, he says "crown of life"--that's the "reward" that's at stake in 1 Co 9:27, where he keeps his body under, as in Ro 8:12,13, where those who walk after the flesh will die and not live.