Works Complete Faith?
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For a NT believer, the moment a man believes the gospel, he has become justified and righteous because he has been placed in Christ. No works to earn it, and no works to justify his salvation. Should one go on to good works? Absolutely. Rewards are at stake. A believer could have all his works burned at the JSOC, but he himself is saved.
I won't get into the debate about rewards by degree at this moment, not having much time to consider it. It just seems to me that the reward He speaks of in the context of His coming are those of "just" rewards, which can very well be those of an undesirable application with regard to the unbelieving.
No, when James says, "Someone will say 'I have faith'" and that man's saying is infinitely inferior to the man who will SHOW YOU his faith, not merely say empty words, "I have faith"--as John says, "Let us love not in word, but in truth and in deed."
James is comparing the persuasive power of a mere statement "I have faith" against the persuasive power of a walk of faith that speaks for itself.
Yep, I believe that.
I believe additional doctrines, as well.
I won't reiterate them all, but, basically, our salvation that Jesus accomplishes is compared to the salvation of the Jews from Egypt (yet, after, they sinned, and, so, fell under God's wrath and forfeited the Promise made to them--today corresponding to eternal life located only in Christ).
The reason I don't agree that only "rewards" are at stake is because of Ro 2:6-16, and many other such passages.
Yep, we're saved like the Jews were saved from Egypt.
Still, after they were saved, they sinned and fell under wrath and forfeited the Promise.
Sorry but your reply was incorrect on both counts.
The "all" can not be referring to the Jews because the Jews did not exist at the time of Abraham.
Legal works also did not exist at the time of Moses, so works in the context would be good works.
The whole point of Paul's narration on Abraham was to illustrate righteous standing by faith.
Romans 4:13
For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
LOL "descendants" means "those who would descend", so, yes, obviously, it refers to people who did not exist.
Paul's argument was "He was justified by faith without works of the Law so that the justification by grace through faith could be foreshadowed for all his descendants--not just you believing Jews, who sneer at your Gentile believing brothers, but all of his descendants."
Because Moses did not make it to the earthly promised land, Moses failed.
Moses led Israel but stumbled and disobeyed God in anger.
A very good lesson for us all.
Oh, LOL, I thought you were calling the user a loser.
How could you call Moses "loser"?
He was the most humble man on the planet (at the time).
I wouldn't call Moses "loser".
People got in trouble with God for speaking against Moses!
We need to separate these two fundamental laws that we were given. Otherwise, we will effectively be opposing God's grace.
The two commandments are below.
1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
Believing in Jesus initiates our salvation.
Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Once you are saved and receive the Holy Spirit, then you can walk in the Spirit. Which confirms your salvation, maintains your salvation. But be very careful, salvation is a gift and so is love, both freely given to us as gifts.
Now say, thank you Jesus.
Numbers 12
5 And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them; and he departed.
There is a serious flaw in your argument.
Abraham did not complete the work of sacrificing his son, Isaac. God intervened and supplied the necessary lamb for the sacrifice.
Abraham believed God and was reckoned righteous, the same way, that we believe in Jesus and are righteous.
It may not make logical sense, but it actually makes perfect Scriptural sense:
1 Corinthians 15
2and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
Hebrews 3
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end...
Hebrews 10
36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
So, there is indeed a substantive justification, partaking, and, yet, for those who do not endure, it goes away, and it is as though they had never had it at all--they are blotted out of the Book of Life, God forgets their (faith which was counted as) righteousness (as He warns in Ezekiel).
Logic can be the enemy of Scripture--Scripture provides us with the precedents, then logic can come in.
The phrase "unless you believed in vain" is explained further down in the text...
... vv.13-14 and 17 -
--"And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain."
--"And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."
Paul's argument, to those not believing in a resurrection, is that, "if Christ be not risen / raised, your faith is vain.... you are yet in your sins"... so believing "in vain" is to leave off the vital fact concerning His resurrection (vv.1-4 , 5-8<--but He ACTUALLY DID!!<--this is the crux of the argument).
It does not mean, somehow failing to measure up to some list of "works-for-salvation" I must do in order to make it.
That's not the CONTEXT, at all.
1. You want to compare "in vain" to some words that come later, but I'm comparing it to the words immediately in context: "you are being saved if you continue in faith".
2. The issue was about how there could have been a substantive justification upon hearing with faith, but also a justification later on.
I provided precedents.
There is no issue.
3. Since you're objecting, though, why is the believer "condemned" for sinning in Romans 14:23? Why does Paul say he could be a "castaway", despite having been saved, just as the Jews fell under God's wrath and didn't inherit the promise, because they sinned after being saved (1 Co 9:26-1 Co 10)? Why does James say "justified by works"?
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