Works Complete Faith?

[romans113336]

Are you in Christ? Did Christ sin? No, then you are sinless. You are righteous because he is righteous. Any other way depends upon man's righteousness. If that is true, man is doomed.

Nope.
1. Answer what was shown to you. Address it. Sin is by definition an act your spirit does. The body demands the spirit do it, contrary to what the spirit wants, and so it is "slavery". When your spirit leaves your body, will your body be able to animate itself and carry out its desires? No! It needs your spirit. There fore the sin is done by the spirit.
Also, James says "all that defiles body and spirit".
2. Revelation 2 and 3, where the Churches' sins are addressed, debunk the idea that God doesn't see our sin.
3. The answer is : when you sin, you're not abiding in Christ. There is no condemnation for those in Christ, but there is condemnation for the Christian who doesn't walk by faith (Ro 14:23), so what happened? 1 Jn 2:28 explains it: "little children remain in Him so that when he appears you will not draw back in shame". So, the answer is they're not remaining in Christ when they're sinning.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Nope.
1. Answer what was shown to you. Address it. Sin is by definition an act your spirit does. The body demands the spirit do it, contrary to what the spirit wants, and so it is "slavery". When your spirit leaves your body, will your body be able to animate itself and carry out its desires? No! It needs your spirit. There fore the sin is done by the spirit.
Also, James says "all that defiles body and spirit".
2. Revelation 2 and 3, where the Churches' sins are addressed, debunk the idea that God doesn't see our sin.
3. The answer is : when you sin, you're not abiding in Christ. There is no condemnation for those in Christ, but there is condemnation for the Christian who doesn't walk by faith (Ro 14:23), so what happened? 1 Jn 2:28 explains it: "little children remain in Him so that when he appears you will not draw back in shame". So, the answer is they're not remaining in Christ when they're sinning.

That is a solid approach.

The body demands the spirit do it,

Are you merely speaking of the flesh body?

 

[romans113336]

That is a solid approach.


Are you merely speaking of the flesh body?

The brain, and the rest of the body--the tempter bases his temptations on our ability to experience bodily pleasure, when what we should be doing is loving experiencing God.

 

[Truthnightmare]

The brain, and the rest of the body.

The brain, and the rest of the body--the tempter bases his temptations on our ability to experience bodily pleasure, when what we should be doing is loving experiencing God.

Never heard the notion put quite this way, so bare with me.

Ezekiel 28
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Lucifer was able to draw away souls, before they were in flesh (some being the fallen angels) thoughts?

 

[romans113336]

Never heard the notion put quite this way, so bare with me.

Ezekiel 28
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Lucifer was able to draw away souls, before they were in flesh (some being the fallen angels) thoughts?

We may not understand what angels are, exactly, but:
a. "The hidden things belong to the LORD."
b. We do know they had children with women, so it's safe to speculate that they have bodies, but they are, as Paul says, "heavenly bodies".

 

[Truthnightmare]

We may not understand what angels are, exactly, but:
a. "The hidden things belong to the LORD."
b. We do know they had children with women, so it's safe to speculate that they have bodies, but they are, as Paul says, "heavenly bodies".

I’m with ya, just floating thoughts. It would seem Lucifer had no flesh body, he wad tempted by no one, and yet sinned.

 

[romans113336]

I’m with ya, just floating thoughts. It would seem Lucifer had no flesh body, he wad tempted by no one, and yet sinned.

I wouldn't agree he had no body, based on the aforementioned, and Christ says the devil is "the father of lies", so he was the first sinner, the first one who chose to idolize pleasure ("lovers of pleasure rather than God")--at least during this age (we don't know how many creations God has made before)--but, anyway, it's tangential.

 

[romans113336]

I’m with ya, just floating thoughts. It would seem Lucifer had no flesh body, he wad tempted by no one, and yet sinned.

I think you're trying to make the point that people can sin without intervention?
That may be the case, but I'm not dogmatic either way.
Either way, what sin is is loving pleasure instead of God.

 

[Truthnightmare]

I think you're trying to make the point that people can sin without intervention?
That may be the case, but I'm not dogmatic either way.
Either way, what sin is is loving pleasure instead of God.

I think you're trying to make the point that people can sin without intervention?

I’m not sure, before sin there is a thought, can that thought be generated within one’s own mind without intervention? Maybe.

 

[romans113336]

I’m not sure, before sin there is a thought, can that thought be generated within one’s own mind without intervention? Maybe.

Thoughts can be sins too.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Thoughts can be sins too.

I don’t disagree, just looking for clarification.

James 1
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death

In your opinion where would you place thought?

 

[romans113336]

I don’t disagree, just looking for clarification.

James 1
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death

In your opinion where would you place thought?

"Do not covet": as soon as there is covetousness, which is "just" a thought, not a physical act, there is already sin.
As Christians, though, there can be thoughts that are not indulged in.

 

[Mem]

If it is true that we can't be saved by our works we and also true that our salvation can be lost by our works, then it seems that the cards are stacked against us.

 

[Truthnightmare]

"Do not covet": as soon as there is covetousness, which is "just" a thought, not a physical act, there is already sin.
As Christians, though, there can be thoughts that are not indulged in.

You may be right…
Looking at the word “covet”
beauty, greatly beloved, covet, delectable thing, great delight, desire, lust,

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin:

When lust (covetness) has conceived then sin comes.

Before a man covets his neighbors wife he would first find her attractive, and thought is present, but not sin, for there is no sin in finding your neighbors wife attractive.

 

[romans113336]

If it is true that we can't be saved by our works we and also true that our salvation can be lost by our works, then it seems that the cards are stacked against us.

Nah, it's a lot simpler than that.

"Which of you, having a donkey or an ox that has fallen into a pit, would not immediately pull him out on Sabbath day?”

He just asks we don't go back to it.

2 Peter 2
22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Psalm 85
4Restore us, God of our salvation,
And cause Your indignation toward us to cease.
5Will You be angry with us forever?
Will You prolong Your anger to [a]all generations?
6Will You not revive us again,
So that Your people may rejoice in You?
7Show us Your mercy, LORD,
And grant us Your salvation.
8[c]I will hear what God the LORD will say;
For He will speak peace to His people, to His godly ones;
And may they not turn back to [d]foolishness.

1 Co 9:27-1 Co 10--you know the drill, Jews were saved out of slavery in Egypt, by the blood of lambs, then were baptized, and ate communion, yet, thereafter, rebelled against God, thus fell under His wrath and forfeited the promise, and this same thing can happen to we who are saved.

 

[romans113336]

You may be right…
Looking at the word “covet”
beauty, greatly beloved, covet, delectable thing, great delight, desire, lust,

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin:

When lust (covetness) has conceived then sin comes.

Before a man covets his neighbors wife he would first find her attractive, and thought is present, but not sin, for there is no sin in finding your neighbors wife attractive.

Ideally, thoughts about how beautiful or ugly the neighbor's wife may be shouldn't even occur to us; ideally, we should be thinking, "I will pray for their marriage to be strong" and "Christ loves them, I will pray they be close to Christ." It's just a different mindset altogether, centered on Christ, not self, and the desire of the eye, the desire of the flesh, and boasting pride.

Not that noticing she is beautiful is sin, it's just a lowly, dogly, thought. It has to do with selfishness. "My eyes report something to me: my eyes find her attractive." One category of sin is "the desire of the eyes". I mean, looking, and looking, and looking... it's a sin. What does her attractiveness have to do with Christ's glory?

 

[Mem]

Nah, it's a lot simpler than that.

"Which of you, having a donkey or an ox that has fallen into a pit, would not immediately pull him out on Sabbath day?”

He just asks we don't go back to it.

2 Peter 2
22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Psalm 85
4Restore us, God of our salvation,
And cause Your indignation toward us to cease.
5Will You be angry with us forever?
Will You prolong Your anger to [a]all generations?
6Will You not revive us again,
So that Your people may rejoice in You?
7Show us Your mercy, LORD,
And grant us Your salvation.
8[c]I will hear what God the LORD will say;
For He will speak peace to His people, to His godly ones;
And may they not turn back to [d]foolishness.

1 Co 9:27-1 Co 10--you know the drill, Jews were saved out of slavery in Egypt, by the blood of lambs, then were baptized, and ate communion, yet, thereafter, rebelled against God, thus fell under His wrath and forfeited the promise, and this same thing can happen to we who are saved.

That's provision for an ace up your sleeve, so I'm pretty sure that's not how the race is honorably won. I figure that if the deck seems stacked, it isn't God dealing the game.

 

[romans113336]

You may be right…
Looking at the word “covet”
beauty, greatly beloved, covet, delectable thing, great delight, desire, lust,

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin:

When lust (covetness) has conceived then sin comes.

Before a man covets his neighbors wife he would first find her attractive, and thought is present, but not sin, for there is no sin in finding your neighbors wife attractive.

The coveting is itself a sin.
It is forcing your spirit to do work the body wants it to do--to animate the body to do the act of coveting (though it is not a physical act, it is an act nonetheless--acts include not only physical but things in the thoughts, as Jesus says adultery in the heart is already guilt).

See how utterly trapped by sin humanity is? Christ is mighty to save.

 

[romans113336]

That's provision for an ace up your sleeve, so I'm pretty sure that's not how the race is honorably won. I figure that if the deck seems stacked, it isn't God dealing the game.

Not sure where this is coming from or going.
I just quoted Scripture.
If "Scripture" is "stacked against you" maybe it's time to realign your beliefs.

 

[romans113336]

The coveting is itself a sin.
It is forcing your spirit to do work the body wants it to do--to animate the body to do the act of coveting (though it is not a physical act, it is an act nonetheless--acts include not only physical but things in the thoughts, as Jesus says adultery in the heart is already guilt).

See how utterly trapped by sin humanity is? Christ is mighty to save.

@Truthnightmare It really is tangential though so I'd prefer to move on.